5 ms·

Not mentioned here was that the group that exploited the vulnerability handed over to PLA linked individuals who then conducted the exfiltration. https://www.j

by dwd 3y ago

Not mentioned here was that the group that exploited the vulnerability handed over to PLA linked individuals who then conducted the exfiltration. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-military-personnel-charged-computer-fraud-economic-espionage-and-wire-fraud-hacking https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-military-personnel-ch... As far as I am aware the data has never been seen on the open market, so there's a whole other National Security story around whether the information was used to compromise individuals with credit issues for commercial and military espionage purposes. It would seem that this was known very early on and possibly factored into the settlement.

b112 3y ago
Also mis-mentioned, is that I heard nothing was "missed" but security upgrades were not possible due to the age of the stack. Pre-0 days are one thing. But leaving systems unpatched for months, because your stack is too old, is a common, but inexcusable theme. This is why it is vital to use libraries, frameworks, with a stable, unchanging LTS branch. Failure to do so, means a security update that needs to be applied instantly, cannot be done, without extensive app changes. New shiny is fine. But it must never, ever override basic security concerns. Security comes first. Not last. Always.
- dwd 3y ago
  Been a few years since I read it, but worth a look due to the detail it goes into. https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/imo/media/doc/FINAL%20Equifax%20Report.pdf https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/imo/media/do...
  - hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
    "They routed traffic through approximately 34 servers located in nearly 20 countries to obfuscate their true location, used encrypted communication channels within Equifax’s network to blend in with normal network activity, and deleted compressed files and wiped log files on a daily basis in an effort to eliminate records of their activity." I wonder how they managed to figure that out. Did they have to look into each of the servers? How did they get the names?
    - b112 3y ago
      They had months to work at it. Due to Equifax's incompetence. It should be noted, the "official" report is what investigators have been told, not what really happened behind the scenes. Naturally Equifax and its employees tried to play the poor, innocent, helpless corp, with those dastardly hackers almost mysteriously getting in.
      - hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
        Thanks, might be my misunderstanding but I was trying to figure out how the investigators managed to figure out. Feels like the only sure way is from a leak from China, but theoretically they can also track all those servers. The whole attack/investigation is super fascinating.
- rmbyrro 3y ago
  You're certainly right. But in this case, no LTS would have covered, since the system was decades old. The issue was that they had a poorly maintained service, hugely outdated, which is hard to secure, mingled with their main up-to-date stack. Lesson: isolate the bad lemons from the good ones.
  - b112 3y ago
    What's happening, is companies are doing a risk assessment, and thinking "well, it probably won't be hacked, we don't need to replace this with something that is auditable, and secure". That needs to 100% end. There are also cases where companies think, "Well, it will take use 3 weeks to update this stack, we'll leave the old, vulnerable code online for that 3 weeks, plus testing, and plus (of course) push, so 2 months, even though this is a very easily exploitable, high profile CVE". That too needs to end. The only way that can end, is if fines are WELL beyond any possible savings, including being 100s of times more than those savings, so that companies will TREMBLE IN FEAR at the very idea of leaving unpatched servers online. Your stack will take 2 months + testing to upgrade? Because you chose a stack without an easy way to upgrade instantly? then you take your stack offline, and tough if it bankrupts you. Because otherwise, we'll fine the company dry, and its directors, and jail the CTO, and the employees who knew.
- g051051 3y ago
  The initial vulnerability was in the "modern" web application that fronted the legacy mainframe application. It was completely patchable, but was missed as described in the article.
  - b112 3y ago
    A little bird told me otherwise.
- tivert 3y ago
  > This is why it is vital to use libraries, frameworks, with a stable, unchanging LTS branch. Failure to do so, means a security update that needs to be applied instantly, cannot be done, without extensive app changes. It's also another reason why it's important to provide such things. It's amazing to me how many people seriously argue it's fine to aggressively drop support for old versions and old features to focus on the newest stuff (and that it's totally fine for table-stakes of "having software" is to have engineers continuously working to keep up with changing dependencies. The reality is the cheapest thing for society is to offer very long term support for old versions, even if it's just security patches, or well-tested backwards-compatibly features in newer versions. It's not sexy work, but it's important.
  - b112 3y ago
    Quite true. But such things do exist, you just have to vet things first. For example, stick to a non-rolling distro, such as debia n stable. Everything there will have around 3 years support, with all the security updates done for you. Debian backports almost all security patches, or sticks with an LTS variant of something (like php) for its lifetime. No surprise API changes, no sudden need for code changes. So many people use the latest shiny, and literally only because they're told to. Many need nothing from that bleeding edge version. When it comes to frameworks, some have LTS versions, stick with those. And things like node? Heh.
hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
Just curious how can I check whether a data set is on market?
- mnw21cam 3y ago
  One of the best ways is to look at the HaveIBeenPwned service https://haveibeenpwned.com/ https://haveibeenpwned.com/ - Troy Hunt goes around spending effort finding these things, so whether he has found it is a reasonable indication of whether it is out there. There's a list of the breaches he has included at http://feeds.feedburner.com/HaveIBeenPwnedLatestBreaches http://feeds.feedburner.com/HaveIBeenPwnedLatestBreaches Edit - sorry, a better list of breaches is at https://haveibeenpwned.com/PwnedWebsites https://haveibeenpwned.com/PwnedWebsites
  - hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
    Thanks a lot, didn't know this guy.
TheHappyOddish 3y ago
What an odd thing to do. I assume the US has no way to enforce this, so it's effectively just... a press release? I also found this funny: > “Today, we hold PLA hackers accountable for their criminal actions, and we remind the Chinese government that we have the capability to remove the Internet’s cloak of anonymity and find the hackers that nation repeatedly deploys against us. And then: > The details contained in the charging document are allegations. > The defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

by dwd 3y ago

b112 3y ago

Also mis-mentioned, is that I heard nothing was "missed" but security upgrades were not possible due to the age of the stack. Pre-0 days are one thing. But leaving systems unpatched for months, because your stack is too old, is a common, but inexcusable theme. This is why it is vital to use libraries, frameworks, with a stable, unchanging LTS branch. Failure to do so, means a security update that needs to be applied instantly, cannot be done, without extensive app changes. New shiny is fine. But it must never, ever override basic security concerns. Security comes first. Not last. Always.

dwd 3y ago
Been a few years since I read it, but worth a look due to the detail it goes into. https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/imo/media/doc/FINAL%20Equifax%20Report.pdf https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/imo/media/do...
- hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
  "They routed traffic through approximately 34 servers located in nearly 20 countries to obfuscate their true location, used encrypted communication channels within Equifax’s network to blend in with normal network activity, and deleted compressed files and wiped log files on a daily basis in an effort to eliminate records of their activity." I wonder how they managed to figure that out. Did they have to look into each of the servers? How did they get the names?
  - b112 3y ago
    They had months to work at it. Due to Equifax's incompetence. It should be noted, the "official" report is what investigators have been told, not what really happened behind the scenes. Naturally Equifax and its employees tried to play the poor, innocent, helpless corp, with those dastardly hackers almost mysteriously getting in.
    - hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
      Thanks, might be my misunderstanding but I was trying to figure out how the investigators managed to figure out. Feels like the only sure way is from a leak from China, but theoretically they can also track all those servers. The whole attack/investigation is super fascinating.
rmbyrro 3y ago
You're certainly right. But in this case, no LTS would have covered, since the system was decades old. The issue was that they had a poorly maintained service, hugely outdated, which is hard to secure, mingled with their main up-to-date stack. Lesson: isolate the bad lemons from the good ones.
- b112 3y ago
  What's happening, is companies are doing a risk assessment, and thinking "well, it probably won't be hacked, we don't need to replace this with something that is auditable, and secure". That needs to 100% end. There are also cases where companies think, "Well, it will take use 3 weeks to update this stack, we'll leave the old, vulnerable code online for that 3 weeks, plus testing, and plus (of course) push, so 2 months, even though this is a very easily exploitable, high profile CVE". That too needs to end. The only way that can end, is if fines are WELL beyond any possible savings, including being 100s of times more than those savings, so that companies will TREMBLE IN FEAR at the very idea of leaving unpatched servers online. Your stack will take 2 months + testing to upgrade? Because you chose a stack without an easy way to upgrade instantly? then you take your stack offline, and tough if it bankrupts you. Because otherwise, we'll fine the company dry, and its directors, and jail the CTO, and the employees who knew.
g051051 3y ago
The initial vulnerability was in the "modern" web application that fronted the legacy mainframe application. It was completely patchable, but was missed as described in the article.
- b112 3y ago
  A little bird told me otherwise.
tivert 3y ago
> This is why it is vital to use libraries, frameworks, with a stable, unchanging LTS branch. Failure to do so, means a security update that needs to be applied instantly, cannot be done, without extensive app changes. It's also another reason why it's important to provide such things. It's amazing to me how many people seriously argue it's fine to aggressively drop support for old versions and old features to focus on the newest stuff (and that it's totally fine for table-stakes of "having software" is to have engineers continuously working to keep up with changing dependencies. The reality is the cheapest thing for society is to offer very long term support for old versions, even if it's just security patches, or well-tested backwards-compatibly features in newer versions. It's not sexy work, but it's important.
- b112 3y ago
  Quite true. But such things do exist, you just have to vet things first. For example, stick to a non-rolling distro, such as debia n stable. Everything there will have around 3 years support, with all the security updates done for you. Debian backports almost all security patches, or sticks with an LTS variant of something (like php) for its lifetime. No surprise API changes, no sudden need for code changes. So many people use the latest shiny, and literally only because they're told to. Many need nothing from that bleeding edge version. When it comes to frameworks, some have LTS versions, stick with those. And things like node? Heh.

hnthrowaway0315 3y ago

Just curious how can I check whether a data set is on market?

mnw21cam 3y ago
One of the best ways is to look at the HaveIBeenPwned service https://haveibeenpwned.com/ https://haveibeenpwned.com/ - Troy Hunt goes around spending effort finding these things, so whether he has found it is a reasonable indication of whether it is out there. There's a list of the breaches he has included at http://feeds.feedburner.com/HaveIBeenPwnedLatestBreaches http://feeds.feedburner.com/HaveIBeenPwnedLatestBreaches Edit - sorry, a better list of breaches is at https://haveibeenpwned.com/PwnedWebsites https://haveibeenpwned.com/PwnedWebsites
- hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
  Thanks a lot, didn't know this guy.

TheHappyOddish 3y ago

What an odd thing to do. I assume the US has no way to enforce this, so it's effectively just... a press release? I also found this funny: > “Today, we hold PLA hackers accountable for their criminal actions, and we remind the Chinese government that we have the capability to remove the Internet’s cloak of anonymity and find the hackers that nation repeatedly deploys against us. And then: > The details contained in the charging document are allegations. > The defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.