7 ms·

What’s up with the UK and its surveillance heavy approach to its citizens? Reminds of what George Orwell feared.

flangola7 3y ago
UK still has the attitude that social classes are a legitimate and real thing. That there exist people to rule or be ruled. Similar attitudes manifest in other western nations but none so normalized that huge sums of taxpayer money funds the lavish lifestyle of a specific family's bloodline, so explicit that living rulers (not leaders, self identified rulers) are placed on every instrument of currency. Their de jure power may be ceremonial but the cultural effect is very real, even if subconscious. Such an attitude enables practices that better attitudes would see as abhorrent.
- ben_w 3y ago
  While this is true, I don't think it's the actual cause. The cause is that they're oblivious to how computers work and think they can do things like this without any important side effects just by saying so.
- wesleywt 3y ago
  And so America was born.
widdershins 3y ago
The Conservative party are in government. Their programme is designed to extract wealth and political agency from the general populace, and suck it up into the control of their own class of people (a mixture of landed gentry, financiers etc). Their vehicles for doing this are fear and distraction, propagated by the media outlets they and their friends own. In this context, zeal for surveillance makes perfect sense. It plays well with people convinced by the Daily Mail that some boogyman (immigrants, paedophiles, whatever) is coming to get them and their children. And it's also useful for keeping tabs on protesters and strikers, who try to draw attention to their tactics and goals.
- switch007 3y ago
  As a Brit I concur 100% with this. Eloquently explained
  - Ylpertnodi 3y ago
    ...and shame! for the opposition[s] parties and voters who have allowed it all, and for so long.
    - kmlx 3y ago
      the opposition is criticising the government for watering down the law. they wanted it to go a lot further (for example making VPNs illegal). there is widespread support for rules against the internet.
      - trackflak 3y ago
        This is the problem, why turn up and vote Labour if they aren't that much better? Why waste an hour of your day that makes no practical difference to the sorry direction of our country? I despair of all politics.
- gambiting 3y ago
  >>And it's also useful for keeping tabs on protesters and strikers, who try to draw attention to their tactics and goals. It's also worth reminding people that UK government has almost outlawed protesting in this country, by making it illegal for any protest to "cause a disruption", which of course any protest does and police are free to interpret this as they want to.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  In this context it makes sense, but the context is false. Ever-deferring problems to class warfare just demotes this actual thing into a conspiracy theory. E.g. British security services unlawfully collected citizen data for 17 years[0]. They started doing so 4 years into Labour's reign, and it eventually got stopped under the Conservatives. The "nerd harder" decryption stuff comes up across the aisle, because both sides of the aisle are populated by non-technical people keen to avoid looking as though they're soft on child pornography. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20161018003035/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/uk-security-agencies-unlawfully-collected-data-for-decade https://web.archive.org/web/20161018003035/https://www.thegu...
Havoc 3y ago
It’s the tories/conservatives. They love this sort of total authority stuff. They’re also keen to bail on intl human rights orgs because it limits what they can do to migrants.
- DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
  Labour did the same thing too (c.f.: Jacqui Smith, et al.): so whichever party is in government they'll kowtow to the Home Office via the Home Secretary. For good, for bad, for worse. (Note that I am not defending the Tories here)
  - Lolaccount 3y ago
    You have to (I believe) acknowledge that this is a next level situation though. I've never seen it this bad in the UK.
  - denton-scratch 3y ago
    > kowtow to the Home Office The Home Office was described by a former Labour Home Secretary as "not fit for purpose" (and he promptly broke it up). That's the only time I can recall a Home Secretary not following the Home Office's repressive, xenophobic attitude. New ministers undergo an induction ritual with their civil servants; they are told what polcies are favoured, and what policies are no-go. They are confronted by a succession of generals and spies, explaining tothem that the world will fall apart if they don't toe the departmental line. I'm convinced that this induction ritual is performed most thoroughly by the Home Office. Apparently-reasonable politicians always turn into authoritarian nutters when they become Home Secretary. I assume that the process amounts to blackmail: "The Prime Minister wants repressive policies from this department, but with deniablility. You are that deniability. Rest assured that if you don't toe the departmental line, you will be fired by the PM."
    - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
      > I'm convinced that this induction ritual is performed most thoroughly by the Home Office. Perhaps, but I'm inclined to believe it starts-off with someone leaving a copy of the Daily Express around where someone else might possibly read it.
kmlx 3y ago
the change was demanded a long time ago by civil society organisations. the opposition is criticising the government for watering it down (for example: the opposition wanted VPNs to be made illegal). there is widespread approval of anything that curbs the power of internet companies.
tannhaeuser 3y ago
I guess one could also argue the other way around: that Orwell knew his compatriots all too well to come up with the particular fears expressed in 1984 and Animal Farm (both set in perverted late stage socialistic rather than capitalistic/neolib societies btw). Following this line of thought, not only did Orwell describe surveillance, but also mass manipulation, so perhaps in UK more than elsewhere there's a tangible fear of mobilizing and polarizing the masses through media, fuelled by liberal press laws, class awareness, and traumatic experience in eg Brexit campaigns, possibly at least partly financed by a foreign adversary.
janandonly 3y ago
It seems the government wants to move forward till the country actually looks like it does in “V for Vendetta”
tim333 3y ago
It's not that bad. We don't have ID cards unlike places like Germany or Spain and don't have an equivalent of a US social security number. I've never felt particularly surveilled here.

UK still has the attitude that social classes are a legitimate and real thing. That there exist people to rule or be ruled. Similar attitudes manifest in other western nations but none so normalized that huge sums of taxpayer money funds the lavish lifestyle of a specific family's bloodline, so explicit that living rulers (not leaders, self identified rulers) are placed on every instrument of currency. Their de jure power may be ceremonial but the cultural effect is very real, even if subconscious. Such an attitude enables practices that better attitudes would see as abhorrent.

ben_w 3y ago
While this is true, I don't think it's the actual cause. The cause is that they're oblivious to how computers work and think they can do things like this without any important side effects just by saying so.
wesleywt 3y ago
And so America was born.

widdershins 3y ago

The Conservative party are in government. Their programme is designed to extract wealth and political agency from the general populace, and suck it up into the control of their own class of people (a mixture of landed gentry, financiers etc). Their vehicles for doing this are fear and distraction, propagated by the media outlets they and their friends own. In this context, zeal for surveillance makes perfect sense. It plays well with people convinced by the Daily Mail that some boogyman (immigrants, paedophiles, whatever) is coming to get them and their children. And it's also useful for keeping tabs on protesters and strikers, who try to draw attention to their tactics and goals.

switch007 3y ago
As a Brit I concur 100% with this. Eloquently explained
- Ylpertnodi 3y ago
  ...and shame! for the opposition[s] parties and voters who have allowed it all, and for so long.
  - kmlx 3y ago
    the opposition is criticising the government for watering down the law. they wanted it to go a lot further (for example making VPNs illegal). there is widespread support for rules against the internet.
    - trackflak 3y ago
      This is the problem, why turn up and vote Labour if they aren't that much better? Why waste an hour of your day that makes no practical difference to the sorry direction of our country? I despair of all politics.
gambiting 3y ago
>>And it's also useful for keeping tabs on protesters and strikers, who try to draw attention to their tactics and goals. It's also worth reminding people that UK government has almost outlawed protesting in this country, by making it illegal for any protest to "cause a disruption", which of course any protest does and police are free to interpret this as they want to.
robertlagrant 3y ago
In this context it makes sense, but the context is false. Ever-deferring problems to class warfare just demotes this actual thing into a conspiracy theory. E.g. British security services unlawfully collected citizen data for 17 years[0]. They started doing so 4 years into Labour's reign, and it eventually got stopped under the Conservatives. The "nerd harder" decryption stuff comes up across the aisle, because both sides of the aisle are populated by non-technical people keen to avoid looking as though they're soft on child pornography. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20161018003035/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/uk-security-agencies-unlawfully-collected-data-for-decade https://web.archive.org/web/20161018003035/https://www.thegu...

Havoc 3y ago

It’s the tories/conservatives. They love this sort of total authority stuff. They’re also keen to bail on intl human rights orgs because it limits what they can do to migrants.

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
Labour did the same thing too (c.f.: Jacqui Smith, et al.): so whichever party is in government they'll kowtow to the Home Office via the Home Secretary. For good, for bad, for worse. (Note that I am not defending the Tories here)
- Lolaccount 3y ago
  You have to (I believe) acknowledge that this is a next level situation though. I've never seen it this bad in the UK.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  > kowtow to the Home Office The Home Office was described by a former Labour Home Secretary as "not fit for purpose" (and he promptly broke it up). That's the only time I can recall a Home Secretary not following the Home Office's repressive, xenophobic attitude. New ministers undergo an induction ritual with their civil servants; they are told what polcies are favoured, and what policies are no-go. They are confronted by a succession of generals and spies, explaining tothem that the world will fall apart if they don't toe the departmental line. I'm convinced that this induction ritual is performed most thoroughly by the Home Office. Apparently-reasonable politicians always turn into authoritarian nutters when they become Home Secretary. I assume that the process amounts to blackmail: "The Prime Minister wants repressive policies from this department, but with deniablility. You are that deniability. Rest assured that if you don't toe the departmental line, you will be fired by the PM."
  - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
    > I'm convinced that this induction ritual is performed most thoroughly by the Home Office. Perhaps, but I'm inclined to believe it starts-off with someone leaving a copy of the Daily Express around where someone else might possibly read it.

kmlx 3y ago

the change was demanded a long time ago by civil society organisations. the opposition is criticising the government for watering it down (for example: the opposition wanted VPNs to be made illegal). there is widespread approval of anything that curbs the power of internet companies.

tannhaeuser 3y ago

I guess one could also argue the other way around: that Orwell knew his compatriots all too well to come up with the particular fears expressed in 1984 and Animal Farm (both set in perverted late stage socialistic rather than capitalistic/neolib societies btw). Following this line of thought, not only did Orwell describe surveillance, but also mass manipulation, so perhaps in UK more than elsewhere there's a tangible fear of mobilizing and polarizing the masses through media, fuelled by liberal press laws, class awareness, and traumatic experience in eg Brexit campaigns, possibly at least partly financed by a foreign adversary.

janandonly 3y ago

It seems the government wants to move forward till the country actually looks like it does in “V for Vendetta”

tim333 3y ago

It's not that bad. We don't have ID cards unlike places like Germany or Spain and don't have an equivalent of a US social security number. I've never felt particularly surveilled here.