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Air Traffic controllers must retire at 56 because they have peoples lives in their hands... Why not have a maximum retirement age for judges too? Maybe somethin

Air Traffic controllers must retire at 56 because they have peoples lives in their hands... Why not have a maximum retirement age for judges too? Maybe something like 88 years old?

derbOac 3y ago
I personally would prefer that these decisions be made based on competency rather than arbitrary age limits. This is especially true as everyone is aging, and the "meaning" of a certain age is changing dramatically. (I'd say this of air traffic controllers also, although I see where you're coming from — I imagine you could have a standard set of tests they need to take regularly? I'm not sure I know enough about it to say confidently.) I don't know the details of the case, and maybe she should step down. However, the article mentions that doctors' evaluations of her competency were submitted. It sounds a bit like an argument over whose expert testimony should be relevant, and I could easily see a situation where someone wants her gone for political reasons ("political" in a broad sense, including "office politics"), and starts demanding that she have a particular evaluation done by a particular professional. If you were going through a divorce and your ex demanded you be evaluated by a psychologist or psychiatrist of their choosing, would you comply? I've seen ageism be leveraged for political reasons with people I know, and it's corrupt, pure and simple. It's not any different from arguing against someone because of their ethnicity or gender. At some point people can't do their job as well anymore and maybe she's at that point. But after reading the article, I wasn't really so sure. I could just as easily see it being the case that someone assumes she should step down because "clearly she's too old at 96", has some resentments about her being there for other reasons, and then leverages the former to achieve satisfaction with regard to the latter.
- photonbeam 3y ago
  Its not that hard to shop around for a doctor who agrees with you though
- redserk 3y ago
  Designing a generic competency test would be very difficult to do fairly. There are a lot of incentives to design a test that would disqualify judges on arbitrary political grounds.
  - Auracle 3y ago
    Perhaps a regular IQ test taken at age 65 and then every few years after would do it. Enough of a decline and you’re no longer fit.
    - Ardon 3y ago
      Tricky, since even if we assume the IQ test is producing a relevant metric there's significant run-to-run variation in test results. A lot of people would get retired prematurely if they happen to roll those dice low.
toast0 3y ago
Because age discrimination against people at least 40 years old is illegal. [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employment_Act_of_1967 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employ...
- olliej 3y ago
  There are already plenty of age restrictions on federal positions, adding new ones seems fine.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  Since any age restriction on judges would alter the “in good behavior” term currently in the Constitution, it would require a Constitutional amendment, rendering any existing statutory prohibition moot, not that the Age Discrimination in Enployment Act referenced applies to political appointees in any case.
crysin 3y ago
Dumb question, and this is just me not Googling... but what do ATC do after their forced retirement at 56? That's still to young to retire, or will be for most people in the future and that's pretty late in someone's life. Are there natural progressions within the industry that they can move onto post being a controller or are they restarting from scratch in a new field?
- 20after4 3y ago
  That's a good question and I'm wondering the same. Seems like a raw deal for air traffic controllers.
  - panda888888 3y ago
    I think they get some type of pension/benefits, similar to how you can retire from the US military after 20 years of service, which is a more extreme case. (If you enlist at age 18, you can be fully retired at 38)
- morog 3y ago
  From a sample size of one ATC I know. After they retire with a very generous pay package, they spend their time getting involved in local flying clubs, going on holiday and spending time with their families. They have enough money not to need to work again.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > but what do ATC do after their forced retirement at 56? That’s still to young to retire, or will be for most people in the future ATC aren’t “most people”, they are federal employees with a federal pension, and not just normal federal pension because ATC service time is “special provision” time that allows retirement at 20 years service and age 50, or 25 years service at any age. Retirement benefit is the (highest average salary over any 36 month window) * (34% + (1% * years of service beyond 20)) Plus an additional “FERS Supplement” payment post retirement to age 62.
Randomizer42 3y ago
How about 75

Air Traffic controllers must retire at 56 because they have peoples lives in their hands... Why not have a maximum retirement age for judges too? Maybe something like 88 years old?

derbOac 3y ago

I personally would prefer that these decisions be made based on competency rather than arbitrary age limits. This is especially true as everyone is aging, and the "meaning" of a certain age is changing dramatically. (I'd say this of air traffic controllers also, although I see where you're coming from — I imagine you could have a standard set of tests they need to take regularly? I'm not sure I know enough about it to say confidently.) I don't know the details of the case, and maybe she should step down. However, the article mentions that doctors' evaluations of her competency were submitted. It sounds a bit like an argument over whose expert testimony should be relevant, and I could easily see a situation where someone wants her gone for political reasons ("political" in a broad sense, including "office politics"), and starts demanding that she have a particular evaluation done by a particular professional. If you were going through a divorce and your ex demanded you be evaluated by a psychologist or psychiatrist of their choosing, would you comply? I've seen ageism be leveraged for political reasons with people I know, and it's corrupt, pure and simple. It's not any different from arguing against someone because of their ethnicity or gender. At some point people can't do their job as well anymore and maybe she's at that point. But after reading the article, I wasn't really so sure. I could just as easily see it being the case that someone assumes she should step down because "clearly she's too old at 96", has some resentments about her being there for other reasons, and then leverages the former to achieve satisfaction with regard to the latter.

photonbeam 3y ago
Its not that hard to shop around for a doctor who agrees with you though
redserk 3y ago
Designing a generic competency test would be very difficult to do fairly. There are a lot of incentives to design a test that would disqualify judges on arbitrary political grounds.
- Auracle 3y ago
  Perhaps a regular IQ test taken at age 65 and then every few years after would do it. Enough of a decline and you’re no longer fit.
  - Ardon 3y ago
    Tricky, since even if we assume the IQ test is producing a relevant metric there's significant run-to-run variation in test results. A lot of people would get retired prematurely if they happen to roll those dice low.

toast0 3y ago

Because age discrimination against people at least 40 years old is illegal. [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employment_Act_of_1967 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employ...

olliej 3y ago
There are already plenty of age restrictions on federal positions, adding new ones seems fine.
dragonwriter 3y ago
Since any age restriction on judges would alter the “in good behavior” term currently in the Constitution, it would require a Constitutional amendment, rendering any existing statutory prohibition moot, not that the Age Discrimination in Enployment Act referenced applies to political appointees in any case.

crysin 3y ago

Dumb question, and this is just me not Googling... but what do ATC do after their forced retirement at 56? That's still to young to retire, or will be for most people in the future and that's pretty late in someone's life. Are there natural progressions within the industry that they can move onto post being a controller or are they restarting from scratch in a new field?

20after4 3y ago
That's a good question and I'm wondering the same. Seems like a raw deal for air traffic controllers.
- panda888888 3y ago
  I think they get some type of pension/benefits, similar to how you can retire from the US military after 20 years of service, which is a more extreme case. (If you enlist at age 18, you can be fully retired at 38)
morog 3y ago
From a sample size of one ATC I know. After they retire with a very generous pay package, they spend their time getting involved in local flying clubs, going on holiday and spending time with their families. They have enough money not to need to work again.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> but what do ATC do after their forced retirement at 56? That’s still to young to retire, or will be for most people in the future ATC aren’t “most people”, they are federal employees with a federal pension, and not just normal federal pension because ATC service time is “special provision” time that allows retirement at 20 years service and age 50, or 25 years service at any age. Retirement benefit is the (highest average salary over any 36 month window) * (34% + (1% * years of service beyond 20)) Plus an additional “FERS Supplement” payment post retirement to age 62.

Randomizer42 3y ago

How about 75