4 ms·

A friend wants to get a "computer" for her 10 year old daughter and I'm having trouble with what to recommend. The alternatives are a "netbook/mini" with Windo

A friend wants to get a "computer" for her 10 year old daughter and I'm having trouble with what to recommend. The alternatives are a "netbook/mini" with Windows, same but repartitioned to also have a Linux partition or an Android tablet. They live half way around the world from me which makes support and interaction hard (timezone issues, hard to troubleshoot when you can't see the screen). All 3 solutions run Skype, let you create and manipulate documents and play games. Windows requires by far the most system administration (virus checkers, frequent updates, driver issues, crapware etc) but has the largest software library. Android has the least amount of system administration (essentially none) but is the least flexible (eg document creation typically requires being online) and Android Market isn't available in their country making acquiring new software hard. Linux has the most flexibility but is also the hardest to use (remember the target is a 10 year old whose parents can't even spell Linux, not you). Netbooks also have the worst hardware support under Linux due to proprietary hardware. An Android tablet would seem to be the best solution when coupled with App Inventor. Sadly App Inventor doesn't run on Android itself so you have to have a non-Android computer to do your development work. I could of course setup emulators so she gets a Sinclair Spectrum and Apple //e and can learn just how I did, but things have moved on.

nooneelse 15y ago
AIDE runs on android tablets. Perhaps not as easy as App Inventor but no other computer needed. But I don't think I would recommend Android for someone in a country in which they can't access the Market/Play/whatever-they-call-it-next-month.
- rogerbinns 15y ago
  > AIDE runs on android tablets You seriously think that AIDE is appropriate for a kid who is proficient at using computers but has never written a program in her life? How many months do you think it would take to walk her through hello world and what do you think the chances are of her getting it? > But I don't think I would recommend Android for someone in a country in which they can't access the Market/Play/whatever-they-call-it-next-month I apologise for being a little loose in my language. Her mom already has two Android devices (tablet and phone) and they sell very well there - usual pattern: BlackBerry was king and is being dethroned. You can access Android Market but you can't buy anything, and a lot of content that is freely available in other countries does not show up. But your gmail will stay up to date and you do get Skype.
  - fpgeek 15y ago
    There's also a Clojure interpreter for Android devices (including tablets), which I think has potential. Unfortunately, it is currently slow and tedious enough that it isn't good for much more than "Hello Lisp!" sorts of exercises.
  - nooneelse 15y ago
    AIDE comes with a hello world program as the first thing it prompts you to try. So, iirc, one just has to hit "run", "install", and "open" to have it going. As for "getting it", that worry is very real. No, I don't think java and the android environment is nice enough that I would want to hand it off to a kid to play with without instruction. There is lots of cruft and more abstractions in play than needed right off the bat, and nothing to say which the kid should be paying attention to. There looks to be a BASIC interpreter in the Play Store for free, https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.free.basic https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.free.basic. It doesn't have an integrated editor though, so the kid would have to understand typing things up in one program and running them in another. Grabbing and trying it... some helpful examples to load would be nice, it doesn't have any. But it does have an "Enter Live" mode, in which one can type up a program and run it. So all that "don't miss a keystroke" charm of the old days is there. This I might very well hand to a kid.
ChuckMcM 15y ago
See the Maximite link below, its pretty straight forward. You've touched upon some of the key issues. But let me walk through them with you and perhaps we'll get to a similar place ... "All 3 solutions run Skype, let you create and manipulate documents and play games." You've outlined some desirable features of this 'computer.' Skype, documents, and game playing. There is a trap here which I've discovered and that is with price. If a computer is 'expensive,' and any new laptop, netbook, or desktop computer will fall into that category, it has to have things which justify its existence/purchase. On the other hand, if the computer does not cost very much, people often dismiss it as a toy. (We have many exemplars from LeapFrog and others which fit this category). If you had the equivalent of an Apple II (but upgraded to some recent microprocessors) you could have a computer which was programmable (and games of the type that make you think versus fast twitch) could be made for it, and on which you could edit documents but not change fonts or any of that stuff necessarily. And it cost less than $50 and the only 'breakable' parts were the keyboard and the TV you hooked it up to, it might be a different story. "An Android tablet would seem to be the best solution when coupled with App Inventor. Sadly App Inventor doesn't run on Android itself so you have to have a non-Android computer to do your development work." This is one of those things that is an issue for me as well. When I tried to use Arduinioes for teaching programming you run into a barrier of getting two computers rather than just one. And sadly the ecosystem of windows, Linux, and MacOS make compatibility a real drain. "I could of course setup emulators so she gets a Sinclair Spectrum and Apple //e and can learn just how I did, but things have moved on." I would hear more about 'moved on' ? Do you mean that you have moved on? Or that computer science has moved on? The beauty of these simple systems is that they are simple. They teach you to 'think' computer and that is tremendously powerful when you attack more modern systems. Sort of like a lawn mower motor on a tube frame with a centrifugal clutch isn't really a 'motorcycle' (its a minibike) but it is a great teaching tool on the concepts involved. One of the areas that could use help on today is graphics. Back in the day there were some great pre-packaged graphics chips with full documentation that you could use to attach to your microprocessor. Sadly those days are gone. The good news however is that nearly every 'intro to FPGAs' class has a part where you build a video chip out of an FPGA. And they are now as cheap as those old customs chips. I've spec'd out a design which is a dual buffered HDMI output with a sprite based HW cursor. Its surprisingly cost effective (parts wise), and since it doesn't care about HDCP compliance its actually pretty simple. With an open access graphics subsystem, a modest ARM core CPU, some memory, and USB plugs for "disks" and "keyboards" I think we could build a system that works well for learning about computers from 'Wow' to pretty sophisticated data structures. But that is getting ahead of myself.
jk 15y ago
In my experience, if you introduce kids to Linux, they learn pretty fast. In my college days, I used to help students of a government school. It is a very undeveloped area and kids don't have computers at home. All school computers ran Linux and students (aged 11-12) didn't face any difficulty in using Linux. I used to give this example to my classmates when they blamed Linux :-)
- rogerbinns 15y ago
  Remember that you were there to do any system administration. Any kid will have no problem figuring out virtually any desktop be it Windows, Mac or one of many alternatives of Linux. After all you (double) click on whatever you want and if it is already running often the program will be brought to the front instead of a new copy. But consider what happens when Ubuntu does an update - if pam gets updated you get a list of services to restart that is gobbeldy gook to almost all. And most operating systems still make adding printers confusing, and troubleshooting printing issues virtually impossible.
Tooluka 15y ago
You are solving the wrong problem. What you are doing, is searching for an environment for a person unfamiliar with computers. This should be a second step really. The first step should be (I think) "what should I buy for 10 YEAR OLD". First of all - I think that netbooks AND notebooks (from 7" to 20") for a child is a bad idea. Netbooks (7" to 10") is especially bad idea. You should consider her eyesight - small, high dpi display very close to the eyes is bad. Consider scoliosis probability - because keyboard is fixed right below the screen and can't disconnected (except 1-2 special rare big notebooks). Consider RSI (repetitive strain injury) to hands, neck etc., hands especially. This can be caused by bad keyboard (all notebooks I think), screen keyboards (on extended use, like writing code, essays etc.), even bad mouse (cause hand position on the mouse is unnatural, it is a 90* turn from ideal position). Developed hand RSI is unbearably painful, considerably limits keyboard usage and heals very, very bad. This is just what I would consider. Ask a medic and he'll tell you more. tl;dr No notebooks and probably tablets for 10 year old. Buy adjustable table, adjustable chair, classic desktop with some ergonomic keyboard and mouse (both with wrist support). Set up timed lockout on the PC, like 10 minutes every 1-2 hours. Lockout after 24:00 and lockout on total uptime per day. After that choose OS from your experience, it doesn't matter really (I think). I promise, she'll thank you 15 years later.
- icebraining 15y ago
  Set up timed lockout on the PC, like 10 minutes every 1-2 hours That would be more than enough to discourage me of ever becoming proficient at this. The "zone" applies when you're just learning too, and breaking it is extremely frustrating. Can you imagine closing the lid of the piano just as the kid is playing some difficult piece correctly for the first time? There should be limits, but they should be soft and enforced by whoever is watching the child, who can presumably understand if (s)he's really excited or just bullshitting on Miniclip or IM.
  - pessimizer 15y ago
    I like the idea of timed lockout. Teaches the kids how to budget.
  - 15y ago

nooneelse 15y ago

AIDE runs on android tablets. Perhaps not as easy as App Inventor but no other computer needed. But I don't think I would recommend Android for someone in a country in which they can't access the Market/Play/whatever-they-call-it-next-month.

rogerbinns 15y ago
> AIDE runs on android tablets You seriously think that AIDE is appropriate for a kid who is proficient at using computers but has never written a program in her life? How many months do you think it would take to walk her through hello world and what do you think the chances are of her getting it? > But I don't think I would recommend Android for someone in a country in which they can't access the Market/Play/whatever-they-call-it-next-month I apologise for being a little loose in my language. Her mom already has two Android devices (tablet and phone) and they sell very well there - usual pattern: BlackBerry was king and is being dethroned. You can access Android Market but you can't buy anything, and a lot of content that is freely available in other countries does not show up. But your gmail will stay up to date and you do get Skype.
- fpgeek 15y ago
  There's also a Clojure interpreter for Android devices (including tablets), which I think has potential. Unfortunately, it is currently slow and tedious enough that it isn't good for much more than "Hello Lisp!" sorts of exercises.
- nooneelse 15y ago
  AIDE comes with a hello world program as the first thing it prompts you to try. So, iirc, one just has to hit "run", "install", and "open" to have it going. As for "getting it", that worry is very real. No, I don't think java and the android environment is nice enough that I would want to hand it off to a kid to play with without instruction. There is lots of cruft and more abstractions in play than needed right off the bat, and nothing to say which the kid should be paying attention to. There looks to be a BASIC interpreter in the Play Store for free, https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.free.basic https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.free.basic. It doesn't have an integrated editor though, so the kid would have to understand typing things up in one program and running them in another. Grabbing and trying it... some helpful examples to load would be nice, it doesn't have any. But it does have an "Enter Live" mode, in which one can type up a program and run it. So all that "don't miss a keystroke" charm of the old days is there. This I might very well hand to a kid.

ChuckMcM 15y ago

See the Maximite link below, its pretty straight forward. You've touched upon some of the key issues. But let me walk through them with you and perhaps we'll get to a similar place ... "All 3 solutions run Skype, let you create and manipulate documents and play games." You've outlined some desirable features of this 'computer.' Skype, documents, and game playing. There is a trap here which I've discovered and that is with price. If a computer is 'expensive,' and any new laptop, netbook, or desktop computer will fall into that category, it has to have things which justify its existence/purchase. On the other hand, if the computer does not cost very much, people often dismiss it as a toy. (We have many exemplars from LeapFrog and others which fit this category). If you had the equivalent of an Apple II (but upgraded to some recent microprocessors) you could have a computer which was programmable (and games of the type that make you think versus fast twitch) could be made for it, and on which you could edit documents but not change fonts or any of that stuff necessarily. And it cost less than $50 and the only 'breakable' parts were the keyboard and the TV you hooked it up to, it might be a different story. "An Android tablet would seem to be the best solution when coupled with App Inventor. Sadly App Inventor doesn't run on Android itself so you have to have a non-Android computer to do your development work." This is one of those things that is an issue for me as well. When I tried to use Arduinioes for teaching programming you run into a barrier of getting two computers rather than just one. And sadly the ecosystem of windows, Linux, and MacOS make compatibility a real drain. "I could of course setup emulators so she gets a Sinclair Spectrum and Apple //e and can learn just how I did, but things have moved on." I would hear more about 'moved on' ? Do you mean that you have moved on? Or that computer science has moved on? The beauty of these simple systems is that they are simple. They teach you to 'think' computer and that is tremendously powerful when you attack more modern systems. Sort of like a lawn mower motor on a tube frame with a centrifugal clutch isn't really a 'motorcycle' (its a minibike) but it is a great teaching tool on the concepts involved. One of the areas that could use help on today is graphics. Back in the day there were some great pre-packaged graphics chips with full documentation that you could use to attach to your microprocessor. Sadly those days are gone. The good news however is that nearly every 'intro to FPGAs' class has a part where you build a video chip out of an FPGA. And they are now as cheap as those old customs chips. I've spec'd out a design which is a dual buffered HDMI output with a sprite based HW cursor. Its surprisingly cost effective (parts wise), and since it doesn't care about HDCP compliance its actually pretty simple. With an open access graphics subsystem, a modest ARM core CPU, some memory, and USB plugs for "disks" and "keyboards" I think we could build a system that works well for learning about computers from 'Wow' to pretty sophisticated data structures. But that is getting ahead of myself.

jk 15y ago

In my experience, if you introduce kids to Linux, they learn pretty fast. In my college days, I used to help students of a government school. It is a very undeveloped area and kids don't have computers at home. All school computers ran Linux and students (aged 11-12) didn't face any difficulty in using Linux. I used to give this example to my classmates when they blamed Linux :-)

rogerbinns 15y ago
Remember that you were there to do any system administration. Any kid will have no problem figuring out virtually any desktop be it Windows, Mac or one of many alternatives of Linux. After all you (double) click on whatever you want and if it is already running often the program will be brought to the front instead of a new copy. But consider what happens when Ubuntu does an update - if pam gets updated you get a list of services to restart that is gobbeldy gook to almost all. And most operating systems still make adding printers confusing, and troubleshooting printing issues virtually impossible.

Tooluka 15y ago

You are solving the wrong problem. What you are doing, is searching for an environment for a person unfamiliar with computers. This should be a second step really. The first step should be (I think) "what should I buy for 10 YEAR OLD". First of all - I think that netbooks AND notebooks (from 7" to 20") for a child is a bad idea. Netbooks (7" to 10") is especially bad idea. You should consider her eyesight - small, high dpi display very close to the eyes is bad. Consider scoliosis probability - because keyboard is fixed right below the screen and can't disconnected (except 1-2 special rare big notebooks). Consider RSI (repetitive strain injury) to hands, neck etc., hands especially. This can be caused by bad keyboard (all notebooks I think), screen keyboards (on extended use, like writing code, essays etc.), even bad mouse (cause hand position on the mouse is unnatural, it is a 90* turn from ideal position). Developed hand RSI is unbearably painful, considerably limits keyboard usage and heals very, very bad. This is just what I would consider. Ask a medic and he'll tell you more. tl;dr No notebooks and probably tablets for 10 year old. Buy adjustable table, adjustable chair, classic desktop with some ergonomic keyboard and mouse (both with wrist support). Set up timed lockout on the PC, like 10 minutes every 1-2 hours. Lockout after 24:00 and lockout on total uptime per day. After that choose OS from your experience, it doesn't matter really (I think). I promise, she'll thank you 15 years later.

icebraining 15y ago
Set up timed lockout on the PC, like 10 minutes every 1-2 hours That would be more than enough to discourage me of ever becoming proficient at this. The "zone" applies when you're just learning too, and breaking it is extremely frustrating. Can you imagine closing the lid of the piano just as the kid is playing some difficult piece correctly for the first time? There should be limits, but they should be soft and enforced by whoever is watching the child, who can presumably understand if (s)he's really excited or just bullshitting on Miniclip or IM.
- pessimizer 15y ago
  I like the idea of timed lockout. Teaches the kids how to budget.
- 15y ago