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Richard Reeves is originally from the left, and there is a podcast interview of him by Ezra Klein (titled "the boys are not alright"). In the interview he descr

Richard Reeves is originally from the left, and there is a podcast interview of him by Ezra Klein (titled "the boys are not alright"). In the interview he describes how he was drawn to feminism and looking at gender inequality, and by looking at the data became convinced that boys and men were a neglected cause. He was then frustrated as other researchers and policy people had no interest in that form of inequality. This experience of a researcher starting by caring deeply about inequality, and starting with feminism, and then identifying male issues and finding a total lack of community interest has occurred before. This is exactly what happened to Warren Farrell, who a was once a major figure in feminism (and then largely ignored once he started talking about the issues facing men) (see his Wikipedia page for details). I think part of what makes getting sociatal buy in on men's issues is that one of the biases men face is a lack of care for men in need of help, and this relates to the idea of male disposability. For reference, there is a quite shocking list of statistics where men have significantly worse outcomes than women: longer jail for the same crime, higher rates of homelessness, higher rates of suicide, lower educational outcomes, shorter life spans, less friends on average, ... Obviously women suffer from other issues, but as Ezra Klein is keen to emphasize to any listeners of the interview, empathy is not a zero sum game.

mock-possum 3y ago
plus a rising tide lifts all ships.
- thunkshift1 3y ago
  apparently not this one though
Jensson 3y ago
> empathy is not a zero sum game. But we are biased to empathize more with women than men, both women and men are biased that way. That is the core of "toxic masculinity", we need everyone to empathize more with men, but instead due to low empathy for men all they say is "just work on your own problems, it isn't that bad for you!!". There isn't much you can do in that situation, the low empathy burden men are shouldered with isn't something society wants to deal with, neither the left nor the right.
- JieJie 3y ago
  It is a tough cognitive dissonance for most people to hold in their minds: men behaving toxically require more emotional support, not less.
  - disqard 3y ago
    Indeed! When I see ultra-wealthy-but-emotionally-isolated people (the trio pointed out by Jaron Lanier comes to mind [1]), all I feel is pity at their condition. What they need is to be emotionally "nursed" back to wellness, but their sheer wealth has isolated them so much that nobody can connect with them on a "normal" human level anymore. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/opinion/trump-musk-kanye-twitter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/opinion/trump-musk-kanye-...
mwbajor 3y ago
Can we have an example of toxic masculinity? I've never once received a real definition in a debate like this and when I'm close to it, the other side tries to make it sound like they are sympathetic to toxic masculinity. For example, I've had it told to me that I shouldnt have my son help me with changing my car's oil because thats putting some sort of burden on him at an early age. Does this sound like something a sane person would say? I would go as far to give the benefit of the doubt and say no, most people are sane and the ones that would make this type of argument are drawn into a social mania.
- conception 3y ago
  “Why are you crying?!? Real men don’t cry!”
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    Exactly this. But even worse, this is frequently not said aloud. It is implicit in all of our interactions. Express too much emotion outside of certain narrow contexts, and other people (men and women alike) will look at you like you are a wimp. Nobody has to say a word.
    - AlexandrB 3y ago
      I think it's worse than that. Traditional gender norms are perfectly ok with men expressing their emotions as long as those emotions are anger.
  - snapplebobapple 3y ago
    That's just the crass version of the actually good advice that goes as follows: Don't react to your emotions, instead notice your emotions wash over you, identify the why and respond rationally instead of emotionally to the why. It's basically good advice given in the worst possible way with deceptive context
    - jmye 3y ago
BossHogg 3y ago
> longer jail for the same crime, higher rates of homelessness, higher rates of suicide, lower educational outcomes, shorter life spans, less friends on average, ... And outcomes are worse for Black men in almost all categories and have been so for some time. Yet the response to negative outcomes for Black people is to blame "black culture." Yet there's no blaming of white culture. Instead this is a crisis we have to do something about. C.f. crack vs fentanyl epidemics.
- LeroyRaz 3y ago
  Richard Reeves would agree that black men and boys are disadvantaged (with outcomes significantly worse than black girls say). In the interview with Ezra Klein he focuses quite bit on this disenfranchisement, and says how the political right neglects disadvantages that uniquely impact race, and the political left neglects disadvantages to men, and the end result is that neither care about the plight of black men. That both parties neglect the cause of black men is (in my opinion) an outcome of a two party system that is so divisive that it leaves no space for nuance (and poor policies and extra needless human misery is the result).
  - euroderf 3y ago
    True voting reform (e.g. STV) would percolate thru the system in myriad ways.
deejatsplit 3y ago
Another good resource for this would be Stiffed by Susan Faludi ( https://susanfaludi.com/stiffed.html https://susanfaludi.com/stiffed.html ) . Similarly, she started off saying "why are guys resisting the women's movement?" and that lead her to some great insights about the situation of men. I think she has some fantastic insights into why it is hard for progress to be made here. (her observation about the "masculine" approach taken by civil rights and women's rights and being a process that can't be taken to 100% completion has sat with me for years). highly recommended as another thoughtful reflection on the situation.

mock-possum 3y ago

plus a rising tide lifts all ships.

thunkshift1 3y ago
apparently not this one though

Jensson 3y ago

> empathy is not a zero sum game. But we are biased to empathize more with women than men, both women and men are biased that way. That is the core of "toxic masculinity", we need everyone to empathize more with men, but instead due to low empathy for men all they say is "just work on your own problems, it isn't that bad for you!!". There isn't much you can do in that situation, the low empathy burden men are shouldered with isn't something society wants to deal with, neither the left nor the right.

JieJie 3y ago
It is a tough cognitive dissonance for most people to hold in their minds: men behaving toxically require more emotional support, not less.
- disqard 3y ago
  Indeed! When I see ultra-wealthy-but-emotionally-isolated people (the trio pointed out by Jaron Lanier comes to mind [1]), all I feel is pity at their condition. What they need is to be emotionally "nursed" back to wellness, but their sheer wealth has isolated them so much that nobody can connect with them on a "normal" human level anymore. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/opinion/trump-musk-kanye-twitter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/opinion/trump-musk-kanye-...

mwbajor 3y ago

Can we have an example of toxic masculinity? I've never once received a real definition in a debate like this and when I'm close to it, the other side tries to make it sound like they are sympathetic to toxic masculinity. For example, I've had it told to me that I shouldnt have my son help me with changing my car's oil because thats putting some sort of burden on him at an early age. Does this sound like something a sane person would say? I would go as far to give the benefit of the doubt and say no, most people are sane and the ones that would make this type of argument are drawn into a social mania.

conception 3y ago
“Why are you crying?!? Real men don’t cry!”
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  Exactly this. But even worse, this is frequently not said aloud. It is implicit in all of our interactions. Express too much emotion outside of certain narrow contexts, and other people (men and women alike) will look at you like you are a wimp. Nobody has to say a word.
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    I think it's worse than that. Traditional gender norms are perfectly ok with men expressing their emotions as long as those emotions are anger.
- snapplebobapple 3y ago
  That's just the crass version of the actually good advice that goes as follows: Don't react to your emotions, instead notice your emotions wash over you, identify the why and respond rationally instead of emotionally to the why. It's basically good advice given in the worst possible way with deceptive context
  - jmye 3y ago

BossHogg 3y ago

> longer jail for the same crime, higher rates of homelessness, higher rates of suicide, lower educational outcomes, shorter life spans, less friends on average, ... And outcomes are worse for Black men in almost all categories and have been so for some time. Yet the response to negative outcomes for Black people is to blame "black culture." Yet there's no blaming of white culture. Instead this is a crisis we have to do something about. C.f. crack vs fentanyl epidemics.

LeroyRaz 3y ago
Richard Reeves would agree that black men and boys are disadvantaged (with outcomes significantly worse than black girls say). In the interview with Ezra Klein he focuses quite bit on this disenfranchisement, and says how the political right neglects disadvantages that uniquely impact race, and the political left neglects disadvantages to men, and the end result is that neither care about the plight of black men. That both parties neglect the cause of black men is (in my opinion) an outcome of a two party system that is so divisive that it leaves no space for nuance (and poor policies and extra needless human misery is the result).
- euroderf 3y ago
  True voting reform (e.g. STV) would percolate thru the system in myriad ways.

deejatsplit 3y ago

Another good resource for this would be Stiffed by Susan Faludi ( https://susanfaludi.com/stiffed.html https://susanfaludi.com/stiffed.html ) . Similarly, she started off saying "why are guys resisting the women's movement?" and that lead her to some great insights about the situation of men. I think she has some fantastic insights into why it is hard for progress to be made here. (her observation about the "masculine" approach taken by civil rights and women's rights and being a process that can't be taken to 100% completion has sat with me for years). highly recommended as another thoughtful reflection on the situation.