42 ms·

The litmus test is whether the issues are being treated like an (apocryphal?) Medieval witch test, where you are a witch regardless of the outcome. For example

by sershe 3y ago

The litmus test is whether the issues are being treated like an (apocryphal?) Medieval witch test, where you are a witch regardless of the outcome. For example, the fact that males disproportionately commit suicide is blamed on toxic masculinity - lack of vulnerability, cultural self esteem issues or whatever. Ok, fair enough; now the counterfactual is, what if females disproportionately committed suicide? It's pretty clear that it would be diagnosed on the left as related to toxic masculinity too (like e.g. women being less assertive asking for raises is). The left talks about these issues like that, all the time, indeed - that makes it easier to dismiss the issues or to blame them on the "victim". It appears that the author thinks some other approach is needed.

acdha 3y ago
Do you have any real examples? As written, it sounds like you’re criticizing non-specific hypothetical leftists for doing something hypocritical which doesn’t seem likely to lead anywhere productive without identifying who you’re talking about or providing examples of real things they said.
- sershe 3y ago
  I provided a real example of an issue where men do worse being diagnosed on the left as a problem with men. I don't think I need to provide examples of issues where women do worse and it's diagnosed on the left as a problem with men. I argue that's the whole of the left discourse.. any new issues would be handled similarly regardless of the outcomes to be discussed. Can you provide any issues as counter-examples?
  - acdha 3y ago
    You mentioned an issue (suicide) but simply asserted how it would be treated. You didn’t mention a single real person taking a position on the issue, establish that they were broadly representative of a group, or even establish which group you’re talking about (i.e. are you using “left” in the Fox News sense, general mainstream American sense, or European sense? Those are very different.)
    - sershe 3y ago
      Hmm, are they hard to find? If you want one random example from a major source, here https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/23/real-man-wyoming-suicide-masculinity/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/23/real-man-wy... I mean left in US context. The further to the left, the more issues/the more the issues are diagnosed like this, as far as I can tell
Volundr 3y ago
> Ok, fair enough; now the counterfactual is, what if females disproportionately committed suicide? It's pretty clear that it would be diagnosed on the left as related to toxic masculinity too. This is not at all clear to me. Women are actually more likely to attempt suicide then men, yet men are more likely to succeed. If what you say is true we should already be able to observe the phenomenon you describe. So where is it?
- sershe 3y ago
  Looks like this issue in particular is not being discussed politically. The closest I can find is that it's explained by depression in women, which in turn is partially explained (search for culture) as I've expected: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in-depth/depression/art-20047725 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in...
  - Volundr 3y ago
    That's.... quite a reach your making. Both writing off the causes in that article as just "toxic masculinity", and describing a mayo clinic article on depression as "the left"
    - sershe 3y ago
      The article lists potential societal causes, among other things. The fact that Mayo is not "the left" if anything makes my point stronger. If this is the "institutional" view, imagine the actual left-wing view (that I was too lazy to google)! An institution that is barely left leaning describes one of the major causes of female depression (in turn a major cause of suicide) as being, to use a shorthand, patriarchy - i.e. some problem with men. The causes of increased suicides in men, as far as I've read, are also various problems with men. Which is exactly the point I was making... see also, violence and incarceration, etc.
      - Volundr 3y ago
        > The article lists potential societal causes, among other things. The fact that Mayo is not "the left" if anything makes my point stronger. If so then I must have missed your point. Because it seemed like you were making a point about the left jumping to conclusions. Not accepting studied medical literature. Does "the right" not think any of the causes the Mayo clinic lists are legitimate causes? Which ones? Where can I learn about this? > If this is the "institutional" view, imagine the actual left-wing view No. Plenty of people spend lots of time imaging what "the others" believe. It's rarely leads to an accurate view.

by sershe 3y ago

acdha 3y ago

Do you have any real examples? As written, it sounds like you’re criticizing non-specific hypothetical leftists for doing something hypocritical which doesn’t seem likely to lead anywhere productive without identifying who you’re talking about or providing examples of real things they said.

sershe 3y ago
I provided a real example of an issue where men do worse being diagnosed on the left as a problem with men. I don't think I need to provide examples of issues where women do worse and it's diagnosed on the left as a problem with men. I argue that's the whole of the left discourse.. any new issues would be handled similarly regardless of the outcomes to be discussed. Can you provide any issues as counter-examples?
- acdha 3y ago
  You mentioned an issue (suicide) but simply asserted how it would be treated. You didn’t mention a single real person taking a position on the issue, establish that they were broadly representative of a group, or even establish which group you’re talking about (i.e. are you using “left” in the Fox News sense, general mainstream American sense, or European sense? Those are very different.)
  - sershe 3y ago
    Hmm, are they hard to find? If you want one random example from a major source, here https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/23/real-man-wyoming-suicide-masculinity/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/23/real-man-wy... I mean left in US context. The further to the left, the more issues/the more the issues are diagnosed like this, as far as I can tell

Volundr 3y ago

> Ok, fair enough; now the counterfactual is, what if females disproportionately committed suicide? It's pretty clear that it would be diagnosed on the left as related to toxic masculinity too. This is not at all clear to me. Women are actually more likely to attempt suicide then men, yet men are more likely to succeed. If what you say is true we should already be able to observe the phenomenon you describe. So where is it?

sershe 3y ago
Looks like this issue in particular is not being discussed politically. The closest I can find is that it's explained by depression in women, which in turn is partially explained (search for culture) as I've expected: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in-depth/depression/art-20047725 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in...
- Volundr 3y ago
  That's.... quite a reach your making. Both writing off the causes in that article as just "toxic masculinity", and describing a mayo clinic article on depression as "the left"
  - sershe 3y ago
    The article lists potential societal causes, among other things. The fact that Mayo is not "the left" if anything makes my point stronger. If this is the "institutional" view, imagine the actual left-wing view (that I was too lazy to google)! An institution that is barely left leaning describes one of the major causes of female depression (in turn a major cause of suicide) as being, to use a shorthand, patriarchy - i.e. some problem with men. The causes of increased suicides in men, as far as I've read, are also various problems with men. Which is exactly the point I was making... see also, violence and incarceration, etc.
    - Volundr 3y ago
      > The article lists potential societal causes, among other things. The fact that Mayo is not "the left" if anything makes my point stronger. If so then I must have missed your point. Because it seemed like you were making a point about the left jumping to conclusions. Not accepting studied medical literature. Does "the right" not think any of the causes the Mayo clinic lists are legitimate causes? Which ones? Where can I learn about this? > If this is the "institutional" view, imagine the actual left-wing view No. Plenty of people spend lots of time imaging what "the others" believe. It's rarely leads to an accurate view.