4 ms·

> Burgess was about 23 weeks along in her pregnancy 23 weeks... I don't know of any country that allows a 23 week abortion.

jiofj 3y ago
For reference this is what a 23-week baby looks like: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/baby-premature-transformation-23-weeks-pregnant-mary-parkins-grace-a8289096.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...
- vgt 3y ago
  please elaborate?
- falcolas 3y ago
  > This is HN, some people here probably advocate for abortion after birth. That’s called murder - the ending of a person, which by the law is a fully born human being. I doubt anybody sane on either side of the political spectrum supports that.
  - HelloMcFly 3y ago
    There are many anti-women's healthcare advocates actually believe that this is what pro-choice individuals want. It's sometimes said as tongue-in-cheek, but there are people that really believe Planned Parenthood wants post-birth abortions to be legal.
    - falcolas 3y ago
      Care of the Fox Entertainment conglomerate. They’ve been claiming this for years now, and their fans eat it up. Another successful story cast as if it were news.
  - michaelsbradley 3y ago
    The politics are messy indeed but see the Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act and the various debates around it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born-Alive_Abortion_Survivors_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born-Alive_Abortion_Survivors_... The history of infanticide and how it was regarded in various places, even into the 20th Century, is complex to say the least: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
  - GuB-42 3y ago
    Still, it is something I wonder about. Coming out of the womb doesn't radically change a baby. It is obviously an important event, but a lot of important events happen in the womb, and a lot of important event happen later too. It is more of an arbitrary cutoff. And it is not completely insane to "abort after birth". It was even suggested to someone I know. The thing is, before birth, they detected potential for some terrible disorder, the kind that result in a (likely short) lifetime of suffering. The doctor asked the mother something along the lines of: "if we find out that the newborn baby has the disorder, we can make a medical error and...". Thankfully, it all went fine, and the baby is now a healthy middle-aged man with kids and good job. So, what do you make of it? Could the diagnosis be done in the proper time frame, it would have been an obvious case for abortion, usually the kind of case that warrants an abortion at any stage even in places that are generally against abortion. But just because it took a few minutes after birth to get a proper diagnosis, then it becomes murder? It is not an easy question. The point between acceptable abortion and murder is somewhere between fertilization and childhood, but where exactly? Many people in the "pro-choice" side of the political spectrum put it at birth, but it is still somewhat arbitrary. Just like the "first heartbeat" criteria of the "pro-life" camp is also arbitrary.
    - falcolas 3y ago
      Raising the life you birth into the world is one of the responsibilities assumed when choosing to be a parent. But if they believe they have a good cause to commit infanticide, let them argue it in front of a jury of their peers.
      - GuB-42 3y ago
        But the same could be said about the life that is about to be born. Life doesn't start the instant the body leaves the womb. Abortion could also be judged in front of a jury. What I meant is that the line between abortion and infanticide, choice and life, is blurry. And you must admit that if you believe that parents have the responsibility to raise the life they birth, then anti-abortion laws make sense, and if you think that parents should have the right to chose, then legalizing infanticide (within limits) is one thing you should consider. I am not picking a side here, I am just saying that if you have an opinion on the matter, the cutoff you chose, being the first heartbeat, a certain number of weeks, or birth, it is arbitrary.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
colechristensen 3y ago
Planned parenthood will do an in office abortion up to 24 weeks, later in exceptional circumstances or for medical reasons. They say so on their website. Their accounting is from end of last period though so the actual pregnancy will usually be a couple of weeks shorter along. Source your facts please. https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/how-far-along-can-you-be-to-get-an-abortion https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/how-far-along-can-you...
- bhouston 3y ago
  > Their accounting is from end of last period though so the actual pregnancy will usually be a couple of weeks shorter along. All pregnancies are dated are from the date of the last period, there is no other standard in US/Canada: https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/week1.html https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/week1.html
syntaxing 3y ago
We (as in the US) have states that allow it.
pseudo0 3y ago
Canada allows abortions up until the moment of birth. There are no legal restrictions whatsoever. Even progressive countries in Europe typically set limits of 10-14 weeks, outside of medical necessity or other exceptional cases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe
- liamwire 3y ago
  From your own source: “Abortion is subject to provincial healthcare regulatory rules and guidelines for physicians. No provinces offer abortion on request at 24 weeks and beyond, although there are exceptions for certain medical complications.” Sounds like the state is simply removing themselves from the process altogether and allowing healthcare professionals to do what they do best: provide healthcare. Let’s not pretend they’re out here providing third trimester terminations on a whim.

jiofj 3y ago

For reference this is what a 23-week baby looks like: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/baby-premature-transformation-23-weeks-pregnant-mary-parkins-grace-a8289096.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...

vgt 3y ago
please elaborate?
falcolas 3y ago
> This is HN, some people here probably advocate for abortion after birth. That’s called murder - the ending of a person, which by the law is a fully born human being. I doubt anybody sane on either side of the political spectrum supports that.
- HelloMcFly 3y ago
  There are many anti-women's healthcare advocates actually believe that this is what pro-choice individuals want. It's sometimes said as tongue-in-cheek, but there are people that really believe Planned Parenthood wants post-birth abortions to be legal.
  - falcolas 3y ago
    Care of the Fox Entertainment conglomerate. They’ve been claiming this for years now, and their fans eat it up. Another successful story cast as if it were news.
- michaelsbradley 3y ago
  The politics are messy indeed but see the Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act and the various debates around it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born-Alive_Abortion_Survivors_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born-Alive_Abortion_Survivors_... The history of infanticide and how it was regarded in various places, even into the 20th Century, is complex to say the least: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
- GuB-42 3y ago
  Still, it is something I wonder about. Coming out of the womb doesn't radically change a baby. It is obviously an important event, but a lot of important events happen in the womb, and a lot of important event happen later too. It is more of an arbitrary cutoff. And it is not completely insane to "abort after birth". It was even suggested to someone I know. The thing is, before birth, they detected potential for some terrible disorder, the kind that result in a (likely short) lifetime of suffering. The doctor asked the mother something along the lines of: "if we find out that the newborn baby has the disorder, we can make a medical error and...". Thankfully, it all went fine, and the baby is now a healthy middle-aged man with kids and good job. So, what do you make of it? Could the diagnosis be done in the proper time frame, it would have been an obvious case for abortion, usually the kind of case that warrants an abortion at any stage even in places that are generally against abortion. But just because it took a few minutes after birth to get a proper diagnosis, then it becomes murder? It is not an easy question. The point between acceptable abortion and murder is somewhere between fertilization and childhood, but where exactly? Many people in the "pro-choice" side of the political spectrum put it at birth, but it is still somewhat arbitrary. Just like the "first heartbeat" criteria of the "pro-life" camp is also arbitrary.
  - falcolas 3y ago
    Raising the life you birth into the world is one of the responsibilities assumed when choosing to be a parent. But if they believe they have a good cause to commit infanticide, let them argue it in front of a jury of their peers.
    - GuB-42 3y ago
      But the same could be said about the life that is about to be born. Life doesn't start the instant the body leaves the womb. Abortion could also be judged in front of a jury. What I meant is that the line between abortion and infanticide, choice and life, is blurry. And you must admit that if you believe that parents have the responsibility to raise the life they birth, then anti-abortion laws make sense, and if you think that parents should have the right to chose, then legalizing infanticide (within limits) is one thing you should consider. I am not picking a side here, I am just saying that if you have an opinion on the matter, the cutoff you chose, being the first heartbeat, a certain number of weeks, or birth, it is arbitrary.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

colechristensen 3y ago

Planned parenthood will do an in office abortion up to 24 weeks, later in exceptional circumstances or for medical reasons. They say so on their website. Their accounting is from end of last period though so the actual pregnancy will usually be a couple of weeks shorter along. Source your facts please. https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/how-far-along-can-you-be-to-get-an-abortion https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/how-far-along-can-you...

bhouston 3y ago
> Their accounting is from end of last period though so the actual pregnancy will usually be a couple of weeks shorter along. All pregnancies are dated are from the date of the last period, there is no other standard in US/Canada: https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/week1.html https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/week1.html

syntaxing 3y ago

We (as in the US) have states that allow it.

pseudo0 3y ago

Canada allows abortions up until the moment of birth. There are no legal restrictions whatsoever. Even progressive countries in Europe typically set limits of 10-14 weeks, outside of medical necessity or other exceptional cases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe

liamwire 3y ago
From your own source: “Abortion is subject to provincial healthcare regulatory rules and guidelines for physicians. No provinces offer abortion on request at 24 weeks and beyond, although there are exceptions for certain medical complications.” Sounds like the state is simply removing themselves from the process altogether and allowing healthcare professionals to do what they do best: provide healthcare. Let’s not pretend they’re out here providing third trimester terminations on a whim.