8 ms·

The left does talk about it. Ridiculous article from jacobin.

hosh 3y ago
Do you have some links to articles about this topic from the left? I typically hear this from the right and have yet to hear something from the left, and I'm curious about how it's framed and understood.
- majormajor 3y ago
  https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/30/whats-the-matter-with-men https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/30/whats-the-matt... Here's an example from earlier this year. The primary difference from the most common ways I hear about it from the right is the lack of a "one simple trick to fix it" prescription. It is more limited to a survey of some of the proposed causes and actions.
  - flutas 3y ago
    For context, I wouldn't say I'm left or right, because both parties have good and bad things about them. That being said, the first thing I noticed with that link was the title. Why is it implying it's Men's fault? > What's the matter with Men? Imagine if on a similarly gendered topic, say abortion, someone published an article with the title "What's wrong with Women." Everyone would be up in arms over it.
    - jmye 3y ago
      I don’t think either of those titles imply fault. Similarly, if you saw Johnny or Suzy crying on the playground, you might ask, “what’s the matter?” That’s not implying they did something bad, it’s asking what hurt them or upset them, in a slightly colloquial way. I think jumping straight to “why are they implying this is men’s fault” is, ultimately, the perspective you’re already bringing to a very benign article title, and the fact you reacted immediately that way instead of assuming good intentions and reading a bit of the content is a reflection on how some folks have decided that “toxic masculinity”, for instance, is a vile attack on men instead of a descriptor for vile things perpetuated on men.
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  Chapo Trap House talks about it all the time. And that’s way more left than any of these ridiculous mainstream media publications Here is one: https://youtu.be/dxdlR_ESJFA?si=tGaUPLTzoh5oNQCh https://youtu.be/dxdlR_ESJFA?si=tGaUPLTzoh5oNQCh
lesuorac 3y ago
I mean, his point is that the Left doesn't actually drive home all the things they do that benefit men. > You have an infrastructure bill that will create jobs largely for men. Two-thirds of the jobs in the infrastructure bill will go to men: black men as much as white men, and Hispanic men a little bit more, because they’re so represented in the construction industry. Don’t hide from that fact, as the administration does when they’re challenged on it. And then also things that are cut and dry worse for men (i.e. suicide rate) you don't see a gender breakdown showing that [1]. And even when the press material has a gender breakdown its part of the "Age" section even though being male is a 3x affect while the age is ~0.25x [2]. Jacobin's point is about messaging and not that "The Left" doesn't do anything. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/index.html [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/disparities-in-suicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/disparities-in-suicide.htm...
- dr_orpheus 3y ago
  > And then also things that are cut and dry worse for men (i.e. suicide rate) Not trying to dilute your point, because if you look at the "Data and Statistics" tab of the page you linked the disparity between male/female is clearly obvious. So I agree that the fact that is not talked about in the disparities is crazy. But, one thing I remember hearing when I was in high school was that suicide attempts were higher amongst women, but the suicide rate was higher amongst men. There is a mention of this in the article for youth, so maybe it was specifically mentioned because of that age group because I can't seem to see if that applies across age groups. "In 2021, 9% of high school students reported attempting suicide during the previous 12 months. Suicide attempts were reported most frequently among girls compared to boys (12.4% vs. 5.3%)"
- diogenes4 3y ago
  First, the infrastructure bill came out of the center, not the left (although it is fairly popular across the entire spectrum). Second, I don't see many people expounding the individual benefit from the infrastructure bill period—seems like a blatant strawman. > Two-thirds of the jobs in the infrastructure bill will go to men: black men as much as white men, and Hispanic men a little bit more, because they’re so represented in the construction industry. If I perceived the government as only capable of offering jobs and no other support I would also be pissed and feel alienated. I don't see much evidence that this is how people view the world outside of the Brookings institute.
Racing0461 3y ago
Only from a 4th wave feminist lens which is unhelpful to male only issues. When Obama tried creating "My Brothers Keeper" program to help struggling AA boys, who got it shut down? Certainly wasn't the right wing.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > When Obama tried creating “My Brothers Keeper” program to help struggling AA boys, who got it shut down? He didn’t try, he succeeded in 2014, and it remained in place as long as he was President, then it stopped being an Administration priority under Donald Trump and went away in 2017 (though the Obama Foundation then launched a similarly named grant program with similar purpose in 2018 which is still active.) > Certainly wasn’t the right wing. Except it absolutely was.
  - Racing0461 3y ago
    I meant the original version.
- BryantD 3y ago
  Can you unpack this a bit? My recollection is that the program was initiated in 2014, with substantial contributions from private organizations. It was further funded in 2015 with more private sector contributions. I believe it was shut down when Trump was inaugurated.
  - Racing0461 3y ago
    Drawing a parallel between "left talking to boys" and "my brother's keeper being originally hyper-targeting AA boys in inner city areas but then being expanded to every group under the sun" calling out why its not effective. Through the 4th wave feminist lens, anything that helps men (or a subgroup of men) alone is by definition evil. Making it all inclusive kept the name only but it lost the ability to help those in need the most. This also ignores the 100s of other interest groups that target the other demographics. We can always make the claim that why artificially limit it to just that subgroup or why can't these specific group of men find help in the all inclusive programs we have already, but then we get back to where we started, that is "see we are talking to men". This is also an allagory at every other attempt of the left wing lens trying to help men. Society is very quick to shove in my face "black patient with black doctors and female patient with female doctors have better outcomes" but for some reason an issue faced by men needs to be watered down or not addressed completely.
Analemma_ 3y ago
Kiiiinda, but there's a long way to go; it's a very big ship that has to get turned. For pretty much the entire 2010s, the dominant mainstream narrative about men's issues was set by places like Jezebel and the loudest and most obnoxious voices on Twitter, where talking about this earned you complete derision (ask me how many times I saw attempts to start conversations replied to with "but what about teh menz?!?") and/or accusations of being a covert or not-so-covert right-winger. It's only very recently that this has started to change, and a lot of people in leftist spaces still have a bunch of cult deprogramming left to do. I think Jacobin is doing the right thing by publishing things like this, even if I don't agree with all their solutions.
easyThrowaway 3y ago
True, but The Right is way, way better at marketing. Which has been historically true since the beginning of the 20th century, Futurism and their extremely well crafted manly art paved the way for Fascism. Check the production values of most socialist-inclined (not liberal, big difference) content on youtube/podcasts vs those coming from the right. I mean, look at those Lex Fridman videos. Like, sure, dude is probably going to support the cause for a new All-American Übermensch or something like that - But he looks coool while doing it, can't deny that. More than 70 years ago Pasolini explicitly said "The right is back again because they scream louder than us" and we're yet far from fully internalizing this concept.
kamray23 3y ago
Yeah. Wage stagnation, gender roles which become increasingly impossible to meet in the modern world, the price of property, commuter town hell, social alienation, lack of third places, even toxic masculinity, all of these are conversations about things that hurt men. And with gender roles expected of men, to be economically successful, to look a certain way and wear certain things and have certain kinds of jobs and a certain kind of car, none of which you can afford anymore, not in a million years – that's a place where maleness, masculinity and despair comes in very explicitly into economic questions and which is talked about a lot. Maybe don't stick your head in the sand the moment someone says "toxic masculinity". It means something which hurts men, too. Every economic conversation and conversation on gender roles touches on this specific kind of despair and anxiety in the universe. If you look hard enough, even consumerist vanilla and milk-toast pieces like the Barbie movie take on talking about the expectations placed on men by themselves and what it feels like to wake up to a society where nobody meets those anymore. For Jacobin to write this is absolutely bizarre. It's almost as if it's aimed more towards people on the right than on the left, except it vindicates the idea that the left never touches the concept of men, as if women were the only thing that existed on the left, which just isn't true. It's always been an everyone club, it's always been a club for those who work for their money and for those sympathetic to them. And it's a place where those people talk about those problems which hurt them. That includes and has always included men.
- valbaca 3y ago
  Exceptionally well-put. Thank you
- Jensson 3y ago
  > Maybe don't stick your head in the sand the moment someone says "toxic masculinity". It means something which hurts men, too. The left however tends to shun the fact that a lot of the toxic masculinity comes from women and their expectations on men and boys. There isn't anything men can do to stop toxic masculinity until women stops propagating it, and the left sees no problem with women and teachers propagating toxic masculinity, at least I've never seen them talk about it as a problem that needs fixing.

hosh 3y ago

Do you have some links to articles about this topic from the left? I typically hear this from the right and have yet to hear something from the left, and I'm curious about how it's framed and understood.

majormajor 3y ago
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/30/whats-the-matter-with-men https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/30/whats-the-matt... Here's an example from earlier this year. The primary difference from the most common ways I hear about it from the right is the lack of a "one simple trick to fix it" prescription. It is more limited to a survey of some of the proposed causes and actions.
- flutas 3y ago
  For context, I wouldn't say I'm left or right, because both parties have good and bad things about them. That being said, the first thing I noticed with that link was the title. Why is it implying it's Men's fault? > What's the matter with Men? Imagine if on a similarly gendered topic, say abortion, someone published an article with the title "What's wrong with Women." Everyone would be up in arms over it.
  - jmye 3y ago
    I don’t think either of those titles imply fault. Similarly, if you saw Johnny or Suzy crying on the playground, you might ask, “what’s the matter?” That’s not implying they did something bad, it’s asking what hurt them or upset them, in a slightly colloquial way. I think jumping straight to “why are they implying this is men’s fault” is, ultimately, the perspective you’re already bringing to a very benign article title, and the fact you reacted immediately that way instead of assuming good intentions and reading a bit of the content is a reflection on how some folks have decided that “toxic masculinity”, for instance, is a vile attack on men instead of a descriptor for vile things perpetuated on men.
MarkMarine 3y ago
Chapo Trap House talks about it all the time. And that’s way more left than any of these ridiculous mainstream media publications Here is one: https://youtu.be/dxdlR_ESJFA?si=tGaUPLTzoh5oNQCh https://youtu.be/dxdlR_ESJFA?si=tGaUPLTzoh5oNQCh

lesuorac 3y ago

I mean, his point is that the Left doesn't actually drive home all the things they do that benefit men. > You have an infrastructure bill that will create jobs largely for men. Two-thirds of the jobs in the infrastructure bill will go to men: black men as much as white men, and Hispanic men a little bit more, because they’re so represented in the construction industry. Don’t hide from that fact, as the administration does when they’re challenged on it. And then also things that are cut and dry worse for men (i.e. suicide rate) you don't see a gender breakdown showing that [1]. And even when the press material has a gender breakdown its part of the "Age" section even though being male is a 3x affect while the age is ~0.25x [2]. Jacobin's point is about messaging and not that "The Left" doesn't do anything. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/index.html [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/disparities-in-suicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/disparities-in-suicide.htm...

dr_orpheus 3y ago
> And then also things that are cut and dry worse for men (i.e. suicide rate) Not trying to dilute your point, because if you look at the "Data and Statistics" tab of the page you linked the disparity between male/female is clearly obvious. So I agree that the fact that is not talked about in the disparities is crazy. But, one thing I remember hearing when I was in high school was that suicide attempts were higher amongst women, but the suicide rate was higher amongst men. There is a mention of this in the article for youth, so maybe it was specifically mentioned because of that age group because I can't seem to see if that applies across age groups. "In 2021, 9% of high school students reported attempting suicide during the previous 12 months. Suicide attempts were reported most frequently among girls compared to boys (12.4% vs. 5.3%)"
diogenes4 3y ago
First, the infrastructure bill came out of the center, not the left (although it is fairly popular across the entire spectrum). Second, I don't see many people expounding the individual benefit from the infrastructure bill period—seems like a blatant strawman. > Two-thirds of the jobs in the infrastructure bill will go to men: black men as much as white men, and Hispanic men a little bit more, because they’re so represented in the construction industry. If I perceived the government as only capable of offering jobs and no other support I would also be pissed and feel alienated. I don't see much evidence that this is how people view the world outside of the Brookings institute.

Racing0461 3y ago

Only from a 4th wave feminist lens which is unhelpful to male only issues. When Obama tried creating "My Brothers Keeper" program to help struggling AA boys, who got it shut down? Certainly wasn't the right wing.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> When Obama tried creating “My Brothers Keeper” program to help struggling AA boys, who got it shut down? He didn’t try, he succeeded in 2014, and it remained in place as long as he was President, then it stopped being an Administration priority under Donald Trump and went away in 2017 (though the Obama Foundation then launched a similarly named grant program with similar purpose in 2018 which is still active.) > Certainly wasn’t the right wing. Except it absolutely was.
- Racing0461 3y ago
  I meant the original version.
BryantD 3y ago
Can you unpack this a bit? My recollection is that the program was initiated in 2014, with substantial contributions from private organizations. It was further funded in 2015 with more private sector contributions. I believe it was shut down when Trump was inaugurated.
- Racing0461 3y ago
  Drawing a parallel between "left talking to boys" and "my brother's keeper being originally hyper-targeting AA boys in inner city areas but then being expanded to every group under the sun" calling out why its not effective. Through the 4th wave feminist lens, anything that helps men (or a subgroup of men) alone is by definition evil. Making it all inclusive kept the name only but it lost the ability to help those in need the most. This also ignores the 100s of other interest groups that target the other demographics. We can always make the claim that why artificially limit it to just that subgroup or why can't these specific group of men find help in the all inclusive programs we have already, but then we get back to where we started, that is "see we are talking to men". This is also an allagory at every other attempt of the left wing lens trying to help men. Society is very quick to shove in my face "black patient with black doctors and female patient with female doctors have better outcomes" but for some reason an issue faced by men needs to be watered down or not addressed completely.

Analemma_ 3y ago

Kiiiinda, but there's a long way to go; it's a very big ship that has to get turned. For pretty much the entire 2010s, the dominant mainstream narrative about men's issues was set by places like Jezebel and the loudest and most obnoxious voices on Twitter, where talking about this earned you complete derision (ask me how many times I saw attempts to start conversations replied to with "but what about teh menz?!?") and/or accusations of being a covert or not-so-covert right-winger. It's only very recently that this has started to change, and a lot of people in leftist spaces still have a bunch of cult deprogramming left to do. I think Jacobin is doing the right thing by publishing things like this, even if I don't agree with all their solutions.

easyThrowaway 3y ago

True, but The Right is way, way better at marketing. Which has been historically true since the beginning of the 20th century, Futurism and their extremely well crafted manly art paved the way for Fascism. Check the production values of most socialist-inclined (not liberal, big difference) content on youtube/podcasts vs those coming from the right. I mean, look at those Lex Fridman videos. Like, sure, dude is probably going to support the cause for a new All-American Übermensch or something like that - But he looks coool while doing it, can't deny that. More than 70 years ago Pasolini explicitly said "The right is back again because they scream louder than us" and we're yet far from fully internalizing this concept.

kamray23 3y ago

Yeah. Wage stagnation, gender roles which become increasingly impossible to meet in the modern world, the price of property, commuter town hell, social alienation, lack of third places, even toxic masculinity, all of these are conversations about things that hurt men. And with gender roles expected of men, to be economically successful, to look a certain way and wear certain things and have certain kinds of jobs and a certain kind of car, none of which you can afford anymore, not in a million years – that's a place where maleness, masculinity and despair comes in very explicitly into economic questions and which is talked about a lot. Maybe don't stick your head in the sand the moment someone says "toxic masculinity". It means something which hurts men, too. Every economic conversation and conversation on gender roles touches on this specific kind of despair and anxiety in the universe. If you look hard enough, even consumerist vanilla and milk-toast pieces like the Barbie movie take on talking about the expectations placed on men by themselves and what it feels like to wake up to a society where nobody meets those anymore. For Jacobin to write this is absolutely bizarre. It's almost as if it's aimed more towards people on the right than on the left, except it vindicates the idea that the left never touches the concept of men, as if women were the only thing that existed on the left, which just isn't true. It's always been an everyone club, it's always been a club for those who work for their money and for those sympathetic to them. And it's a place where those people talk about those problems which hurt them. That includes and has always included men.

valbaca 3y ago
Exceptionally well-put. Thank you
Jensson 3y ago
> Maybe don't stick your head in the sand the moment someone says "toxic masculinity". It means something which hurts men, too. The left however tends to shun the fact that a lot of the toxic masculinity comes from women and their expectations on men and boys. There isn't anything men can do to stop toxic masculinity until women stops propagating it, and the left sees no problem with women and teachers propagating toxic masculinity, at least I've never seen them talk about it as a problem that needs fixing.