6 ms·

I think you can detain them until they provide documentation. Not sending them back just encourages more people to come in, even if the journey is hard(i.e the

I think you can detain them until they provide documentation. Not sending them back just encourages more people to come in, even if the journey is hard(i.e they are held up at various borders such Turkey). I don't see many illegal immigrants in UAE/Dubai for example.

n4r9 3y ago
> I don't see many illegal immigrants in UAE/Dubai for example. How would you know? And is this a fair comparison? I've heard that the country relies heavily on South Asian labourers with terrible working conditions, as well as housemaids who are effectively imprisoned by their employers. It's a huge section of the economy. I wouldn't be surprised if the government makes it pretty easy to enter legally, or if a bunch of labourers are flying under the radar without the government caring. I decided to search for some facts and found the following: * Immigrants, particularly from India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan, comprise over 90 percent of the country's private workforce [0] * In 2013, the UAE had the fifth-largest international migrant stock in the world with 7.8 million migrants (out of a total population of 9.2 million) [0] * About 65,000 unauthorized migrants — including those who entered the country illegally, visa over-stayers, migrants working on tourist visas, and others — currently reside in the UAE, according to official estimates (unofficial estimates run up to 135,000). [0] * An unknown but likely significant number of migrants lack any identification papers after having “absconded” or abandoned abusive employers who withhold their passports [0] * More than 10,500 illegal residents were prosecuted in the UAE in 2022, according to authorities.[1] * In December 2012, the government announced a two-month amnesty program allowing unauthorized migrant workers to regularize their situations or leave the country without punishment. * In August 2018 the government repeated this amnesty. [3] * The UAE Government exempts fines for Illegal Foreigners/residents, under these conditions: your Emirates ID or Work Permit has expired, you are Workers who run away from sponsors and violate employment contracts. [4] [0] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/labor-migration-united-arab-emirates-challenges-and-responses https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/labor-migration-unit... [1] https://www.khaleejtimes.com/life-and-living/visa-and-immigration-in-uae/uae-visa-overstayers-part-time-workers-among-over-10500-illegal-residents-caught-in-2022 https://www.khaleejtimes.com/life-and-living/visa-and-immigr... [2] https://sojo.net/articles/how-united-arab-emirates-country-90-percent-immigrants-handles-immigration https://sojo.net/articles/how-united-arab-emirates-country-9... [3] https://www.stalawfirm.com/en/news/view/illegal-immigration-amnesty-in-the-uae.html https://www.stalawfirm.com/en/news/view/illegal-immigration-... [4] https://kemlu.go.id/dubai/en/news/7262/illegal-foreigners-exemption-program-issued-by-the-uae-government https://kemlu.go.id/dubai/en/news/7262/illegal-foreigners-ex...
dylan604 3y ago
I've never looked into it, but at whose expense is this "shipping back" done? I seriously doubt those seeking refuge can pay.
- thefounder 3y ago
  I think it can be done on the cheap if private sector is allowed to operate.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    Ah yes, let have private sector detain people without trial and ship them around the world. Where have I seen this before? Ah yes, trans-atlantic slave trade.
    - thefounder 3y ago
      You don't know what slave trade was/is. Borders exist for a reason.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        >Borders exist for a reason. Because some white men drew them on maps.... Sykes-Picot was a disaster for the middle east.
        thefounder 3y ago
        The black and yellow men have borders too.
      - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        > You don't know what slave trade was You dont know anything about slavery today. Your beloved private sector literally sells slaves to construction companies in Dubai.
        3y ago
hollander 3y ago
From an EU perpective… What if they don't have papers? What if their country hasn't registered them? What if they lie about their name and birthdate, so their home country cannot identify them? What if the home country doesn't want them back? People don't go to UAE because life will be worse there. Your encouragement argument has no base in reality. You live your well informed western perspective. These people have no idea where they are going, what life will be like here in the EU (terrible for many). They take the risk because they have nothing to lose: famine, natural disasters, never ending wars, dictators. They don't do this because they are encouraged somehow, except that they can't stay at home anymore. That is the "encouragement" indeed. The journey is not "hard". It's insufferably hard. Everything you have will be stolen. You may be kidnapped to do slave labour. You may get raped, killed, or see your mates get killed in front of you. And that is before you step in a small boat with tens of people to cross a sea with no navigation, not enough food or water. When you enter Italy and see your refugee status rejected, you enter the human void of being "illegal", undocumented. You live by the day, no future lies ahead of you. If you get accepted, you may have lost seven years living in some kind of open prison, no language lessons, nothing to do all day. Talk about "encouragement", but this doesn't stop people either. So why would this encouragement argument only work one way? Because the discouragement measures do not work at all.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  > What if they don't have papers? What if their country hasn't registered them? What if they lie about their name and birthdate, so their home country cannot identify them? Not our problem? Not our problem, and not our problem. Keep them detained in the meanwhile. If you want asylum the least you can do is be honest. > These people have no idea where they are going, what life will be like... They take the risk because they have nothing to lose: famine, natural disasters, never ending wars, dictators. It's an inconsequential act for the most part. "Nothing to lose" that they know of. I take it being more of a fad (certainly fueled by propaganda) than anything else > The journey is not "hard". It's insufferably hard "Everybody should know that" by now. But it seems they can't see that perspective. As I said, it's more of a reckless act than anything else. Asking for charitable views cease when it's more a choice than anything else. And in the best case they'll be an overworked refugee with barely no perspective. > You live your well informed western perspective Having come from a 3rd world country, let me tell you that the naive views from the 1st world about this abound. (Your post thankfully is more balanced than most views out there.) Especially thinking mass immigration like that will solve anything about labour shortages.

n4r9 3y ago

> I don't see many illegal immigrants in UAE/Dubai for example. How would you know? And is this a fair comparison? I've heard that the country relies heavily on South Asian labourers with terrible working conditions, as well as housemaids who are effectively imprisoned by their employers. It's a huge section of the economy. I wouldn't be surprised if the government makes it pretty easy to enter legally, or if a bunch of labourers are flying under the radar without the government caring. I decided to search for some facts and found the following: * Immigrants, particularly from India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan, comprise over 90 percent of the country's private workforce [0] * In 2013, the UAE had the fifth-largest international migrant stock in the world with 7.8 million migrants (out of a total population of 9.2 million) [0] * About 65,000 unauthorized migrants — including those who entered the country illegally, visa over-stayers, migrants working on tourist visas, and others — currently reside in the UAE, according to official estimates (unofficial estimates run up to 135,000). [0] * An unknown but likely significant number of migrants lack any identification papers after having “absconded” or abandoned abusive employers who withhold their passports [0] * More than 10,500 illegal residents were prosecuted in the UAE in 2022, according to authorities.[1] * In December 2012, the government announced a two-month amnesty program allowing unauthorized migrant workers to regularize their situations or leave the country without punishment. * In August 2018 the government repeated this amnesty. [3] * The UAE Government exempts fines for Illegal Foreigners/residents, under these conditions: your Emirates ID or Work Permit has expired, you are Workers who run away from sponsors and violate employment contracts. [4] [0] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/labor-migration-united-arab-emirates-challenges-and-responses https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/labor-migration-unit... [1] https://www.khaleejtimes.com/life-and-living/visa-and-immigration-in-uae/uae-visa-overstayers-part-time-workers-among-over-10500-illegal-residents-caught-in-2022 https://www.khaleejtimes.com/life-and-living/visa-and-immigr... [2] https://sojo.net/articles/how-united-arab-emirates-country-90-percent-immigrants-handles-immigration https://sojo.net/articles/how-united-arab-emirates-country-9... [3] https://www.stalawfirm.com/en/news/view/illegal-immigration-amnesty-in-the-uae.html https://www.stalawfirm.com/en/news/view/illegal-immigration-... [4] https://kemlu.go.id/dubai/en/news/7262/illegal-foreigners-exemption-program-issued-by-the-uae-government https://kemlu.go.id/dubai/en/news/7262/illegal-foreigners-ex...

dylan604 3y ago

I've never looked into it, but at whose expense is this "shipping back" done? I seriously doubt those seeking refuge can pay.

thefounder 3y ago
I think it can be done on the cheap if private sector is allowed to operate.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  Ah yes, let have private sector detain people without trial and ship them around the world. Where have I seen this before? Ah yes, trans-atlantic slave trade.
  - thefounder 3y ago
    You don't know what slave trade was/is. Borders exist for a reason.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      >Borders exist for a reason. Because some white men drew them on maps.... Sykes-Picot was a disaster for the middle east.
      - thefounder 3y ago
        The black and yellow men have borders too.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      > You don't know what slave trade was You dont know anything about slavery today. Your beloved private sector literally sells slaves to construction companies in Dubai.
      - 3y ago

hollander 3y ago

From an EU perpective… What if they don't have papers? What if their country hasn't registered them? What if they lie about their name and birthdate, so their home country cannot identify them? What if the home country doesn't want them back? People don't go to UAE because life will be worse there. Your encouragement argument has no base in reality. You live your well informed western perspective. These people have no idea where they are going, what life will be like here in the EU (terrible for many). They take the risk because they have nothing to lose: famine, natural disasters, never ending wars, dictators. They don't do this because they are encouraged somehow, except that they can't stay at home anymore. That is the "encouragement" indeed. The journey is not "hard". It's insufferably hard. Everything you have will be stolen. You may be kidnapped to do slave labour. You may get raped, killed, or see your mates get killed in front of you. And that is before you step in a small boat with tens of people to cross a sea with no navigation, not enough food or water. When you enter Italy and see your refugee status rejected, you enter the human void of being "illegal", undocumented. You live by the day, no future lies ahead of you. If you get accepted, you may have lost seven years living in some kind of open prison, no language lessons, nothing to do all day. Talk about "encouragement", but this doesn't stop people either. So why would this encouragement argument only work one way? Because the discouragement measures do not work at all.

raverbashing 3y ago
> What if they don't have papers? What if their country hasn't registered them? What if they lie about their name and birthdate, so their home country cannot identify them? Not our problem? Not our problem, and not our problem. Keep them detained in the meanwhile. If you want asylum the least you can do is be honest. > These people have no idea where they are going, what life will be like... They take the risk because they have nothing to lose: famine, natural disasters, never ending wars, dictators. It's an inconsequential act for the most part. "Nothing to lose" that they know of. I take it being more of a fad (certainly fueled by propaganda) than anything else > The journey is not "hard". It's insufferably hard "Everybody should know that" by now. But it seems they can't see that perspective. As I said, it's more of a reckless act than anything else. Asking for charitable views cease when it's more a choice than anything else. And in the best case they'll be an overworked refugee with barely no perspective. > You live your well informed western perspective Having come from a 3rd world country, let me tell you that the naive views from the 1st world about this abound. (Your post thankfully is more balanced than most views out there.) Especially thinking mass immigration like that will solve anything about labour shortages.