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> Rant over. If Western democracies don't start to stand up for our proclaimmed values, we will loose what little soft power we have left. Don't worry, to the

> Rant over. If Western democracies don't start to stand up for our proclaimmed values, we will loose what little soft power we have left. Don't worry, to the rest of the developing world, Western democracies are already considered to be a bunch of moralizing hypocrites, looking to impose their erstwhile colonial tendencies in other ways. Oh, and you guys are a laughing stock with the recent immigration issues, what with Lampedusa being showcased front and center of the news. You guys ship your garbage to other poorer countries in some sort of wretched don't ask, don't tell policy, then blame those same countries for polluting the earth. Meanwhile a bunch of clowns in your countries inconvenience the rest of the populace by sticking themselves to the roads as a "sign of protest". To quote Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed, the UAE foreign minister, "the next generation of terrorists will be from Europe and the West". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY Get over it, you guys are already a joke, already on the decline. Get out of your city shells and walk the rural areas a bit to see how your fellow countrymen actually feel about the policies of your government. Of how the common man has been continually shafted while you preach and vacillate about human rights. I look forward to the amount of PhD dissertations that will study the decline of Europe and the West over the post-GFC decade. Rant over.

unethical_ban 3y ago
[flagged]
- fakedang 3y ago
  I'm Indian, been living in Europe and Switzerland for almost the past decade. I've spent a considerable time of my upbringing in South east Asia and the Middle East. I currently reside in Switzerland, specifically Zurich, with occasional stints to the US for business. I used to live in Germany prior to that. There used to be a time I dreamt of Western citizenship, but not anymore. Hope that answers your "question", although I'm certain you'd be loathe to reciprocate the same favor to me and reveal your origin. As for the climate hypocrisy argument, sorry to hurt your preconceived notions, but it's already proven that most of the waste that ends up dumped in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malaysia-environment-plastic-idUSKBN2BT1YT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malaysia-environment-plas... https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Philippines-slams-the-door-on-world-s-plastic-waste#:~:text=MANILA%20%2D%2D%20The%20Philippines%20is,moratorium%20on%20waste%2Drelated%20imports https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Philippines-sl.... https://e360.yale.edu/features/plastic-waste-imports-recycling-indonesia https://e360.yale.edu/features/plastic-waste-imports-recycli... But go on, vacillate and down vote in your self righteousness.
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    I applaud you for answering the question. I'm from Texas, United States. Your argument comparing climate protestors and governments who ship garbage to developing countries is bunk, though. Ever thought about who those protestors are angry with? An intelligent conversation can be had about failing democratic institutions in the west, the need to disincentive wasteful consumption, and (as happens already) what levels of support developed countries owe to developing countries to dissuade the latter from ramping up fossil fuels consumption. But your finger wagging still doesn't make sense in the context of thinking India or the developing world is any better.
    - fakedang 3y ago
      > But your finger wagging still doesn't make sense in the context of thinking India or the developing world is any better. I never implied that India or China are doing any better (although India has taken massive strides which is usually ignored by the West). My gripe is with Western countries criticizing the global south for environmental neglect, when they don't do anything about it and simply ship away their problems. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/climate/oil-kenya-africa-plastics-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/climate/oil-kenya-africa-...
  - glogla 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - avgcorrection 3y ago
      Our Western attitude towards freedom of opinion on display.
      - glogla 3y ago
        [flagged]
        avgcorrection 3y ago
- freeopinion 3y ago
  I'm from the USA. Your post alarms me. You berate China and India for using rivers as their own garbage disposal. This seems to be a response to criticize somebody who is making the same claim, more or less. I am not the original commenter, but let me add here my own observation. In the USA we have a lot of laws and regulations that are supposed to prevent industry from polluting the environment, exploiting child labor, unduly endangering their workforce, etc. You cannot produce a product to place on the shelves of Walmart if you violate these rules. I think most Americans support most of those regulations. But we do not impose those rules on companies from China or India. This means that a product produced in the USA can cost significantly more than an identical product produced in India. Naturally, USA industry recognizes this and shifts their production out of the USA. You could characterize this as "ship your garbage to other poorer countries." That is, don't allow USA rivers to be polluted but make your money by polluting rivers outside the USA. I don't suggest that the USA removes its prohibitions from USA industry. I suggest that they impose the same prohibitions on non-USA industry with respect to markets inside the USA. And by this I don't mean raise tariffs. I mean that if a company in Iowa is not allowed to put a product on the shelves at Walmart because their smokestack is too dirty, then a company in Qinghai should not be allowed to do so if their smokestack is too dirty by the same standard.
- glogla 3y ago
  Just downvote, flag and move on. This guy is here to insult people for fun and stir shit. No reason to engage (and yes, I know I'm also guilty of engaging with anti-Western but definitely not pro-Chinese/pro-Russian trolls).
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  > Nothing like a troll-named account to post a lot of brash talk without the courage to name where they're from. Oh my goodness, “brash talk”. We Westerners give out a whole laundry list of things that we do contary to our “proclaimed values” and then in the next paragraph say “anyway, if we don't get our act together the third-worlders might stop looking up to us and our values”.[1] It's farcical how arrogant that is. [1] Mock quote.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    If you quote me, do it correctly. I mever said looking up, I said soft power in geo politics, which I think democracies should have. There is nothing saviour-related to this opinion. Anyway, there is nothing good that came from the last NATO led interventions, did it? Which is part of the problem.
    - avgcorrection 3y ago
      That part says “mock quote”. From the start.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        So intentionally misreading comments? I think there is something in the HN guidelines about that...
        avgcorrection 3y ago
        No. (1) Talking generally and (2) reading into whatever the hell “soft power” means in this context. But report me if you want. I'm sure all of us on this site would get banned because we (“we” as in HN, lest you accuse me of misreading again) constantly disagree about how we interpret each other here.
wsc981 3y ago
I do agree Europe is on a decline and in my opinion it is irreversible. It’s one of the reasons why I am happy to have been migrated to South-East Asia from The Netherlands. The reason why I believe it’s irreversible is because of the power of the media. Too many people still believe the global warming narrative and are open to mass immigration. Not to mention the fact that the USA has succeeded in convincing many Europeans that Russia is to be an enemy instead of an ally. All of this will greatly increase the cost of living for the common man while at the same time the welfare state is being destroyed. Europeans will face much hardship the next decennia and I don’t think they’ll be able to recover. I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I’ll voice it here anyways :)
- webshit2 3y ago
  I also can't believe the big bad USA has turned the Baltic states, Poland, Ukraine, etc on Russia. It's because the media is just too weak in Russia, China, Iran, North Korea so they haven't been able to communicate their upstanding values clearly enough.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  Ooo, a pro Russia climate change denier. Don't see those in polite society often. Believe me, there are many in the liberal sphere who do not support unlimited mass migration. Open borders are not compatible with a welfare state. As for denying the changing climate and supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine, I don't feel anything I can type in short order would enlighten the reader if they don't already see the injustice after a few hundred thousand dead.
  - miguelazo 3y ago
    >Open borders are not compatible with a welfare state Maybe you liberals shouldn't support neoconservative conflicts that drive the migration in the first place. Hillary's State Department did such a great job in Honduras, Libya, Syria. The same is happening now in Ukraine. These conflicts are all about preserving American hegemony, nothing more.
    - 3y ago

unethical_ban 3y ago

[flagged]

fakedang 3y ago
I'm Indian, been living in Europe and Switzerland for almost the past decade. I've spent a considerable time of my upbringing in South east Asia and the Middle East. I currently reside in Switzerland, specifically Zurich, with occasional stints to the US for business. I used to live in Germany prior to that. There used to be a time I dreamt of Western citizenship, but not anymore. Hope that answers your "question", although I'm certain you'd be loathe to reciprocate the same favor to me and reveal your origin. As for the climate hypocrisy argument, sorry to hurt your preconceived notions, but it's already proven that most of the waste that ends up dumped in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malaysia-environment-plastic-idUSKBN2BT1YT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malaysia-environment-plas... https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Philippines-slams-the-door-on-world-s-plastic-waste#:~:text=MANILA%20%2D%2D%20The%20Philippines%20is,moratorium%20on%20waste%2Drelated%20imports https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Philippines-sl.... https://e360.yale.edu/features/plastic-waste-imports-recycling-indonesia https://e360.yale.edu/features/plastic-waste-imports-recycli... But go on, vacillate and down vote in your self righteousness.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  I applaud you for answering the question. I'm from Texas, United States. Your argument comparing climate protestors and governments who ship garbage to developing countries is bunk, though. Ever thought about who those protestors are angry with? An intelligent conversation can be had about failing democratic institutions in the west, the need to disincentive wasteful consumption, and (as happens already) what levels of support developed countries owe to developing countries to dissuade the latter from ramping up fossil fuels consumption. But your finger wagging still doesn't make sense in the context of thinking India or the developing world is any better.
  - fakedang 3y ago
    > But your finger wagging still doesn't make sense in the context of thinking India or the developing world is any better. I never implied that India or China are doing any better (although India has taken massive strides which is usually ignored by the West). My gripe is with Western countries criticizing the global south for environmental neglect, when they don't do anything about it and simply ship away their problems. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/climate/oil-kenya-africa-plastics-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/climate/oil-kenya-africa-...
- glogla 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    Our Western attitude towards freedom of opinion on display.
    - glogla 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - avgcorrection 3y ago
freeopinion 3y ago
I'm from the USA. Your post alarms me. You berate China and India for using rivers as their own garbage disposal. This seems to be a response to criticize somebody who is making the same claim, more or less. I am not the original commenter, but let me add here my own observation. In the USA we have a lot of laws and regulations that are supposed to prevent industry from polluting the environment, exploiting child labor, unduly endangering their workforce, etc. You cannot produce a product to place on the shelves of Walmart if you violate these rules. I think most Americans support most of those regulations. But we do not impose those rules on companies from China or India. This means that a product produced in the USA can cost significantly more than an identical product produced in India. Naturally, USA industry recognizes this and shifts their production out of the USA. You could characterize this as "ship your garbage to other poorer countries." That is, don't allow USA rivers to be polluted but make your money by polluting rivers outside the USA. I don't suggest that the USA removes its prohibitions from USA industry. I suggest that they impose the same prohibitions on non-USA industry with respect to markets inside the USA. And by this I don't mean raise tariffs. I mean that if a company in Iowa is not allowed to put a product on the shelves at Walmart because their smokestack is too dirty, then a company in Qinghai should not be allowed to do so if their smokestack is too dirty by the same standard.
glogla 3y ago
Just downvote, flag and move on. This guy is here to insult people for fun and stir shit. No reason to engage (and yes, I know I'm also guilty of engaging with anti-Western but definitely not pro-Chinese/pro-Russian trolls).
avgcorrection 3y ago
> Nothing like a troll-named account to post a lot of brash talk without the courage to name where they're from. Oh my goodness, “brash talk”. We Westerners give out a whole laundry list of things that we do contary to our “proclaimed values” and then in the next paragraph say “anyway, if we don't get our act together the third-worlders might stop looking up to us and our values”.[1] It's farcical how arrogant that is. [1] Mock quote.
- hef19898 3y ago
  If you quote me, do it correctly. I mever said looking up, I said soft power in geo politics, which I think democracies should have. There is nothing saviour-related to this opinion. Anyway, there is nothing good that came from the last NATO led interventions, did it? Which is part of the problem.
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    That part says “mock quote”. From the start.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      So intentionally misreading comments? I think there is something in the HN guidelines about that...
      - avgcorrection 3y ago
        No. (1) Talking generally and (2) reading into whatever the hell “soft power” means in this context. But report me if you want. I'm sure all of us on this site would get banned because we (“we” as in HN, lest you accuse me of misreading again) constantly disagree about how we interpret each other here.

wsc981 3y ago

I do agree Europe is on a decline and in my opinion it is irreversible. It’s one of the reasons why I am happy to have been migrated to South-East Asia from The Netherlands. The reason why I believe it’s irreversible is because of the power of the media. Too many people still believe the global warming narrative and are open to mass immigration. Not to mention the fact that the USA has succeeded in convincing many Europeans that Russia is to be an enemy instead of an ally. All of this will greatly increase the cost of living for the common man while at the same time the welfare state is being destroyed. Europeans will face much hardship the next decennia and I don’t think they’ll be able to recover. I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I’ll voice it here anyways :)

webshit2 3y ago
I also can't believe the big bad USA has turned the Baltic states, Poland, Ukraine, etc on Russia. It's because the media is just too weak in Russia, China, Iran, North Korea so they haven't been able to communicate their upstanding values clearly enough.
unethical_ban 3y ago
Ooo, a pro Russia climate change denier. Don't see those in polite society often. Believe me, there are many in the liberal sphere who do not support unlimited mass migration. Open borders are not compatible with a welfare state. As for denying the changing climate and supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine, I don't feel anything I can type in short order would enlighten the reader if they don't already see the injustice after a few hundred thousand dead.
- miguelazo 3y ago
  >Open borders are not compatible with a welfare state Maybe you liberals shouldn't support neoconservative conflicts that drive the migration in the first place. Hillary's State Department did such a great job in Honduras, Libya, Syria. The same is happening now in Ukraine. These conflicts are all about preserving American hegemony, nothing more.
  - 3y ago