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> It's like every other framework is slowly rediscovering why React made the decisions it made. Definitely there is convergence in DX now. No need for everyon

> It's like every other framework is slowly rediscovering why React made the decisions it made. Definitely there is convergence in DX now. No need for everyone to admit one or another framework was right first or not - that is just creating antagonism or negating people lived experiences and innovation. But I do find it pretty weird that this convergence is happening. Initially I thought it was diverging with svelte but it seems to be reserving direction.

satvikpendem 3y ago
> * But I do find it pretty weird that this convergence is happening. Initially I thought it was diverging with svelte but it seems to be reserving direction.* Convergent evolution [0]. Just as a shark, dolphin, and ichthyosaur all have the same body shape which is efficient for swimming and hunting in the water, so too do technologies converge when the problems are all the same and the solutions are understood, only as humans we can learn from each other rather than randomly mutating our codebases [1]. It's the same reason why we see a lot of languages starting to adopt more functional features such as not using `null` and having exhaustive pattern matching, such as Rust (from OCaml), Dart 3, recent versions of Java, etc. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_programming
- dleeftink 3y ago
  But for every similar shaped organism, there exist as many, if not more dissimilar ones, either alive or preceding. Convergence is not a given, and for every instance of convergence there are just as many divergences, even when appearing similar on the surface. For each degree of software 'carcinization' [1], I'd contend there are as many evolutionary offshoots going against the grain. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinisation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinisation
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    That's true, but perhaps just like in biological evolution, the ones that are against the grain don't survive, for whatever reason. So it could even be that convergence occurs via selection.
LapsangGuzzler 3y ago
I think this somewhat inevitable given the flexibility of javascript. The lack of convergence on one single paradigm as a long-lasting set of best practices speaks to all of things that a web framework needs to have in order to accommodate all developers. In Svelte's case, it feels like they went as far as they could without directly addressing observables until they reached a point where it became one of the largest features that had yet to be addressed. Open source frameworks, not unlike companies, need to continue attracting new users to grow the ecosystem, which means pleasing an ever-growing user base.
- ttfkam 3y ago
  Svelte Stores are observables, just without the extra boilerplate.
jjtheblunt 3y ago
> reserving direction autocorrect style typo, i think
hajile 3y ago
It's not convergence, it's the cycle of development patterns. Patterns come and go leaving bad memories that become anecdotes. Anecdotes become "misunderstanding the paradigm" and even the misunderstandings are long forgotten when the pattern that made them comes into vogue again.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  I wonder if it's due to how new people are to the industry, as well as how new the industry itself is. In disciplines like mechanical or chemical engineering, you don't see nearly this much reinvention of the same patterns. I imagine most people these days using React, Vue, Svelte, or Solid have never even used jQuery or Knockout, as those are almost 15 years or older at this point.
  - hajile 3y ago
    If you're an engineer, physics are always there to smack you in the face. As a result, engineers collect sets of things that physics seem to be fine with and reuse them. If engineering were programming, a woodpecker in Central Park would bring down the Eiffel Tower. Programming is not physical. It is generally bound by Turing completeness, the halting problem, 2 generals problem, and the like, but most developers don't even write code on that level. That leaves them with an infinite number of ways to solve problems with the real limiting factor often being the humans instead of the fundamental limits. If you use 5 different design patterns in 5 different frameworks, they all still work, so now you must decide (based on ever-changing factors) which one is actually the best. Complicating this is the issue that not all people were taught the same or think the same way either, so an approach that makes sense to some people might not make sense to other people. The extremes here based on education and what you learned first are massive even when there are objectively better answers too. An entire generation of devs either retired or died rather than move from assembly to Fortran or C. That generation retired or died rather than move to OOP and the OOP people are retiring/dying rather than moving on to more functional approaches to programming.
    - satvikpendem 3y ago

satvikpendem 3y ago

> * But I do find it pretty weird that this convergence is happening. Initially I thought it was diverging with svelte but it seems to be reserving direction.* Convergent evolution [0]. Just as a shark, dolphin, and ichthyosaur all have the same body shape which is efficient for swimming and hunting in the water, so too do technologies converge when the problems are all the same and the solutions are understood, only as humans we can learn from each other rather than randomly mutating our codebases [1]. It's the same reason why we see a lot of languages starting to adopt more functional features such as not using `null` and having exhaustive pattern matching, such as Rust (from OCaml), Dart 3, recent versions of Java, etc. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_programming

dleeftink 3y ago
But for every similar shaped organism, there exist as many, if not more dissimilar ones, either alive or preceding. Convergence is not a given, and for every instance of convergence there are just as many divergences, even when appearing similar on the surface. For each degree of software 'carcinization' [1], I'd contend there are as many evolutionary offshoots going against the grain. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinisation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinisation
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  That's true, but perhaps just like in biological evolution, the ones that are against the grain don't survive, for whatever reason. So it could even be that convergence occurs via selection.

LapsangGuzzler 3y ago

I think this somewhat inevitable given the flexibility of javascript. The lack of convergence on one single paradigm as a long-lasting set of best practices speaks to all of things that a web framework needs to have in order to accommodate all developers. In Svelte's case, it feels like they went as far as they could without directly addressing observables until they reached a point where it became one of the largest features that had yet to be addressed. Open source frameworks, not unlike companies, need to continue attracting new users to grow the ecosystem, which means pleasing an ever-growing user base.

ttfkam 3y ago
Svelte Stores are observables, just without the extra boilerplate.

jjtheblunt 3y ago

> reserving direction autocorrect style typo, i think

hajile 3y ago

It's not convergence, it's the cycle of development patterns. Patterns come and go leaving bad memories that become anecdotes. Anecdotes become "misunderstanding the paradigm" and even the misunderstandings are long forgotten when the pattern that made them comes into vogue again.

satvikpendem 3y ago
I wonder if it's due to how new people are to the industry, as well as how new the industry itself is. In disciplines like mechanical or chemical engineering, you don't see nearly this much reinvention of the same patterns. I imagine most people these days using React, Vue, Svelte, or Solid have never even used jQuery or Knockout, as those are almost 15 years or older at this point.
- hajile 3y ago
  If you're an engineer, physics are always there to smack you in the face. As a result, engineers collect sets of things that physics seem to be fine with and reuse them. If engineering were programming, a woodpecker in Central Park would bring down the Eiffel Tower. Programming is not physical. It is generally bound by Turing completeness, the halting problem, 2 generals problem, and the like, but most developers don't even write code on that level. That leaves them with an infinite number of ways to solve problems with the real limiting factor often being the humans instead of the fundamental limits. If you use 5 different design patterns in 5 different frameworks, they all still work, so now you must decide (based on ever-changing factors) which one is actually the best. Complicating this is the issue that not all people were taught the same or think the same way either, so an approach that makes sense to some people might not make sense to other people. The extremes here based on education and what you learned first are massive even when there are objectively better answers too. An entire generation of devs either retired or died rather than move from assembly to Fortran or C. That generation retired or died rather than move to OOP and the OOP people are retiring/dying rather than moving on to more functional approaches to programming.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago