10 ms·

The West is way to cooperative with regimes like Erdogan, Modi, the UAE or Qatar. To name a few. But what do you expect from a government, Germany which just s

by hef19898 3y ago

The West is way to cooperative with regimes like Erdogan, Modi, the UAE or Qatar. To name a few. But what do you expect from a government, Germany which just so happens to be mine, that sees no problem in letting others do the dirty work of repulsing migrants in the Mediterranean, to their death sometimes, not intervening when the US intern German citizens in Guantanamo for years. Most of it out of fear of the far right since the refugee crisis in Europe. With great success regarding the containment of the far right, they poll quite often on second place now. Oh, I forgot, while our police isn't holding journalists, or people threatening and harassing others for that matter, they happily use similar powers to lock up climate activists for a couple of days without trial. Rant over. If Western democracies don't start to stand up for our proclaimmed values, we will loose what little soft power we have left.

mschuster91 3y ago
Fully agree with you. (I'm German as well, in case that matters)
- hef19898 3y ago
  We have elections on state level coming up. Hard choice, because for once a single vote really matters (before every government was more or less the same, now there is the risk of having the AfD sitting there). And those voters are voting! So, two choices, vote on principle and hopefully strengthen the oposition enough to count, or vote for the conservative government hoping to make thek strong enough to not need the far right. Well, it actually isn't that hard a choice, but still.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    As first generation out of portuguese dictatorship in the 70's, living through the whole west/east split, and spending half of my life in Germany, it isn't fun seeing that happening. Similar increase is happening in Portugal, Chega party being one of them. It is as if the younger generations have no clue what they are voting for. When they discoverer, it will be too late.
    - vkou 3y ago
      > It is as if the younger generations have no clue what they are voting for. They know exactly what they are voting for.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        The hard core of those voters, yes. The usual 10-15% or radicals and racists. All the others actually have no clue sometimes.
        vkou 3y ago
        I think they understand it, they just don't give a shit, because they aren't the people being targeted.
      - saiya-jin 3y ago
        I dont think they realize long term consequences, life and politics aint tiktok where 10 second attention span is normalized or even cool. Shit has consequences for decades, but nobody knows them. I dont have an answer. I personally moved away from my home country (Slovakia) almost 2 decades away, thinking far right is probably the biggest long term threat with causing some civil war with our big Roma population. Oh boy was I wrong, far right is now completely managed by russian troll farms now, they literally jump as russians whistle (an expression back home), having some utterly illogical positions. You look left, there is a guy completely interwined with 'ndrangheta who probably will win, murdering journalists, managing economy so badly that Romania took us over. Right is this above. Both love russia in fact. Nothing competent in between. People voted last time for cca new face and he turned to be some bipolar less than useless freak who just pissed off literally everybody left and right.
        selimthegrim 3y ago
        What about the president who’s quitting?
    - jmopp 3y ago
  - pgeorgi 3y ago
    > And those voters are voting! That's why it's even more important to go vote this time, and for a party that will likely make the cut. For all intents and purposes, votes for the everybody-knows-they-will-be-<5% parties are lost votes, with the only difference to "not voting" that there's a buck or so per voter for those parties' piggy-banks. The rumor that invalidating the ballot makes any difference makes a reappearance every few years, so for clarity: The same applies to invalid votes, which end up being just a line-item in some statistic nobody cares about.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Absolutely agree. And there are only so many above 5% parties, so the choice actually isn't really that hard.
pxtail 3y ago
> With great success regarding the containment of the far right, they poll quite often on second place now. So why is this happening? Isn't it a sign that they are proposing ideas more attractive to more and more people? Or alternatively people are becoming skeptical about ideas and policies realized so far by current government over the years?
- bradley13 3y ago
  The success of the far right in Europe is driven by migration. Huge numbers of economic migrants make their way illegally to Europe. They have little education and no useful work skills. WTF are we supposed to do with them? The correct solution is to send illegal migrants right back to Africa. However, only the far right parties dare say that - hence, the increasing support they are getting, despite their other positions.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    The latest increase in popularity of the AfD is in part due to the question of home heating devices...
  - polygamous_bat 3y ago
    > The correct solution is to send illegal migrants right back to Africa. However, only the far right parties dare say that - hence, the increasing support they are getting, despite their other positions. In case you're unaware, the reason Europe has its current asylum standards largely because of what happened between 1933-1945. So would your proposed solution be: 1. Deny asylum to anyone and everyone, even those fleeing genocide ("Sorry that happened to you, we don't have room here!"), or 2. Implement a color chart a la Family Guy [1], so only the "right people" can come in? [1] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/family-guy-skin-color-chart https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/family-guy-skin-color-chart
    - blockmarker 3y ago
      The idea that we should allow our countries and our way of life to be ruined because of something that happened 70 years ago is absurd.
thefounder 3y ago
[flagged]
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  It's because of where Turkey is geographically. That is all it is about. It's all it's ever been about, and the UK is not alone in this capitulation.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Without cooperation from Turkey, they wouldn’t even need to take a boat - they could just do land crossings. Do Europeans not realize the sheer number of refugees that Turkey is sheltering in place of them?
  - esafak 3y ago
    The official figure is five million; mostly from Syria. https://teyit.org/dosya/turkiyedeki-siginmaci-sayisi-veriler-ne-soyluyor https://teyit.org/dosya/turkiyedeki-siginmaci-sayisi-veriler...
- pjc50 3y ago
  Undocumented people can't legitimately enter a country other than their country of origin, which works in both directions. In order to ship people "back" you have to do so directly, including the cooperation of their government to verify that they are in fact their nationals.
  - thefounder 3y ago
    I think you can detain them until they provide documentation. Not sending them back just encourages more people to come in, even if the journey is hard(i.e they are held up at various borders such Turkey). I don't see many illegal immigrants in UAE/Dubai for example.
    - n4r9 3y ago
      > I don't see many illegal immigrants in UAE/Dubai for example. How would you know? And is this a fair comparison? I've heard that the country relies heavily on South Asian labourers with terrible working conditions, as well as housemaids who are effectively imprisoned by their employers. It's a huge section of the economy. I wouldn't be surprised if the government makes it pretty easy to enter legally, or if a bunch of labourers are flying under the radar without the government caring. I decided to search for some facts and found the following: * Immigrants, particularly from India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan, comprise over 90 percent of the country's private workforce [0] * In 2013, the UAE had the fifth-largest international migrant stock in the world with 7.8 million migrants (out of a total population of 9.2 million) [0] * About 65,000 unauthorized migrants — including those who entered the country illegally, visa over-stayers, migrants working on tourist visas, and others — currently reside in the UAE, according to official estimates (unofficial estimates run up to 135,000). [0] * An unknown but likely significant number of migrants lack any identification papers after having “absconded” or abandoned abusive employers who withhold their passports [0] * More than 10,500 illegal residents were prosecuted in the UAE in 2022, according to authorities.[1] * In December 2012, the government announced a two-month amnesty program allowing unauthorized migrant workers to regularize their situations or leave the country without punishment. * In August 2018 the government repeated this amnesty. [3] * The UAE Government exempts fines for Illegal Foreigners/residents, under these conditions: your Emirates ID or Work Permit has expired, you are Workers who run away from sponsors and violate employment contracts. [4] [0] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/labor-migration-united-arab-emirates-challenges-and-responses https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/labor-migration-unit... [1] https://www.khaleejtimes.com/life-and-living/visa-and-immigration-in-uae/uae-visa-overstayers-part-time-workers-among-over-10500-illegal-residents-caught-in-2022 https://www.khaleejtimes.com/life-and-living/visa-and-immigr... [2] https://sojo.net/articles/how-united-arab-emirates-country-90-percent-immigrants-handles-immigration https://sojo.net/articles/how-united-arab-emirates-country-9... [3] https://www.stalawfirm.com/en/news/view/illegal-immigration-amnesty-in-the-uae.html https://www.stalawfirm.com/en/news/view/illegal-immigration-... [4] https://kemlu.go.id/dubai/en/news/7262/illegal-foreigners-exemption-program-issued-by-the-uae-government https://kemlu.go.id/dubai/en/news/7262/illegal-foreigners-ex...
fakedang 3y ago
> Rant over. If Western democracies don't start to stand up for our proclaimmed values, we will loose what little soft power we have left. Don't worry, to the rest of the developing world, Western democracies are already considered to be a bunch of moralizing hypocrites, looking to impose their erstwhile colonial tendencies in other ways. Oh, and you guys are a laughing stock with the recent immigration issues, what with Lampedusa being showcased front and center of the news. You guys ship your garbage to other poorer countries in some sort of wretched don't ask, don't tell policy, then blame those same countries for polluting the earth. Meanwhile a bunch of clowns in your countries inconvenience the rest of the populace by sticking themselves to the roads as a "sign of protest". To quote Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed, the UAE foreign minister, "the next generation of terrorists will be from Europe and the West". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY Get over it, you guys are already a joke, already on the decline. Get out of your city shells and walk the rural areas a bit to see how your fellow countrymen actually feel about the policies of your government. Of how the common man has been continually shafted while you preach and vacillate about human rights. I look forward to the amount of PhD dissertations that will study the decline of Europe and the West over the post-GFC decade. Rant over.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - fakedang 3y ago
    I'm Indian, been living in Europe and Switzerland for almost the past decade. I've spent a considerable time of my upbringing in South east Asia and the Middle East. I currently reside in Switzerland, specifically Zurich, with occasional stints to the US for business. I used to live in Germany prior to that. There used to be a time I dreamt of Western citizenship, but not anymore. Hope that answers your "question", although I'm certain you'd be loathe to reciprocate the same favor to me and reveal your origin. As for the climate hypocrisy argument, sorry to hurt your preconceived notions, but it's already proven that most of the waste that ends up dumped in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malaysia-environment-plastic-idUSKBN2BT1YT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malaysia-environment-plas... https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Philippines-slams-the-door-on-world-s-plastic-waste#:~:text=MANILA%20%2D%2D%20The%20Philippines%20is,moratorium%20on%20waste%2Drelated%20imports https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Philippines-sl.... https://e360.yale.edu/features/plastic-waste-imports-recycling-indonesia https://e360.yale.edu/features/plastic-waste-imports-recycli... But go on, vacillate and down vote in your self righteousness.
skippyboxedhero 3y ago
They aren't cooperative. The article explains they didn't actually do anything. But international agreements on policing essentially compel police here to act (but not necessarily charge or return people). For some reason, it is literally the same people who say that massive limitations need to be placed on native authority by international agreements, by courts (in some countries, depending on the legal system), etc. AND they say it is shocking that our police aren't sovereign...really? We cannot have it both ways...either you trust local authority or you trust the authority of foreign governments...it cannot be neither.
user_7832 3y ago
> The West is way to cooperative with regimes like Erdogan, Modi, the UAE or Qatar. To name a few. I fail to understand how Modi (and likely Erdogan), who are elected representatives, are at the same level as the UAE or Qatar. "Look at the human right violations they've done!" Not defending them, but then would you add Bush/Obama/Trump to the list (between Guantanamo Bay/all the middle east military "interventions") Or how Assange is still being treated by the US? I'm not trying to flame-bait, but if a leader is a democratically elected rep is conflated with autocracies that's not a sound argument. Especially when it's something more countries do than don't. (Disclaimer, am Indian)
- hef19898 3y ago
  I could throw in the likes of Nethanyahu and Orban and the Polish government, some are just further down the road to totalitarianism then others.
  - user_7832 3y ago
    That is a fair point. So would it be more of a gradient than a line?
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Yes, it is. That is also why this development is so insisdious and dangerous.
- colpabar 3y ago
  In america, "democracy" actually means "democracy that is beneficial to us". If we don't approve of it, it's not real democracy, and we can just send in the CIA to make it the way we want it to be. It's why "populism" is so bad yet people here still reference the popular vote when their preferred candidate got more votes overall.
- janc_ 3y ago
  When you throw all credible newspaper editors/owners and many credible opposition politicians in prison based on made-up charges, like Erdogan has done, there can't be fair & democratic elections.
jiofj 3y ago
Nothing more democratic than asking for the "containment" of the side of politics that you don't like.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Sure, it is very democratic to try and contain ideas and movements that are fundentally oppossed to democratic rule.
hackandthink 3y ago
German citizen kidnapped by the CIA. Germany does not care: https://www.dw.com/en/kidnapped-by-the-cia-the-case-of-khaled-el-masri/a-61205120 https://www.dw.com/en/kidnapped-by-the-cia-the-case-of-khale...
- hef19898 3y ago
  Our current, well respected, head of state was foreign minister back then.
gumballindie 3y ago
[flagged]
- hef19898 3y ago
  Come again? Nor that it is perfect here, far from it, but what you say is just...
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    Is what? Want me to list the number of people that I personally know have been abused, harrased, and monitored, just because they were the wrong kind of european? Ranging from PhD students, to software engineers, doctors, drivers, nurses, etc?
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Germany is what then? You want Germany to be exposed, go ahead. Because I never said racism doesn't exist here, because it does. As do other bad things. Your claim went a lot further than that so.
      - gumballindie 3y ago
        That's not racism, it goes well beyond that, nearing the territory of hostility.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> Erdogan, Modi, the UAE or Qatar. One of these is not like the others - India is a real democracy, even if it has issues.
- helpfulContrib 3y ago
  The omission of the KSA in this list is distinctly disappointing. It should be the #1 example of regimes we need to stop pandering to ..
  - hef19898 3y ago
    How did I forget KSA...
asdff 3y ago
The west hardly cares about soft power. Can you give an example of some soft power that wasn't due to a legal agreement? I came up dry just now thinking of some example that the west has set that the rest of the world has followed purely on the idea of it alone. There's always some sort of formal agreement it seems when it comes to these sorts of things, e.g. forms of government, trade, mutually passed laws like drug scheduling or extradition.
helpfulContrib 3y ago
>Western democracies don't start to stand up for our proclaimmed values That ship has left the barn long, long ago. We can't provide military resources to a known fascist totalitarian-authoritarian dictatorship, so they can enact genocide, and still proclaim ourselves on the 'right' side of history. The illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003: same. The funding and arming of ISIS. The destruction of Libya. We lost our moral altitude long, long ago - and its not coming back. As this story demonstrates, we in the West have gotten far, far too complacent about totalitarian-authoritarianism, such that we just accept it when it happens to us, at the airport, etc.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  I think it could well be argued that the "West" never even had moral values. Just look at WW2 and their failure to liberate Eastern Europe and regain lands conquered by Stalin... After that it really was more about their benefits and than any real values held.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Well, there was a reason the continuation of WW2 against the USSR was called "Operation Unthinkable". There was simply no way anybody could afford to start a land war against the USSR in 1945. But yes, the Western values always have been over valued (no pun intended). Just how much over valued becomes clearer by the day. Still, democracy is the best available form of government, and there have been serious progress in tue last decades. I just wished tze West would wake up and start to live those proclaimed values (which aren't bad at all) and not just so lip service.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      They still had other half of population with suffrage left. And wouldn't value of democracy mean that also sacrificing them would have been morally correct way to spread democracy? Just arm them and send to frontlines.

mschuster91 3y ago

Fully agree with you. (I'm German as well, in case that matters)

hef19898 3y ago
We have elections on state level coming up. Hard choice, because for once a single vote really matters (before every government was more or less the same, now there is the risk of having the AfD sitting there). And those voters are voting! So, two choices, vote on principle and hopefully strengthen the oposition enough to count, or vote for the conservative government hoping to make thek strong enough to not need the far right. Well, it actually isn't that hard a choice, but still.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  As first generation out of portuguese dictatorship in the 70's, living through the whole west/east split, and spending half of my life in Germany, it isn't fun seeing that happening. Similar increase is happening in Portugal, Chega party being one of them. It is as if the younger generations have no clue what they are voting for. When they discoverer, it will be too late.
  - vkou 3y ago
    > It is as if the younger generations have no clue what they are voting for. They know exactly what they are voting for.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      The hard core of those voters, yes. The usual 10-15% or radicals and racists. All the others actually have no clue sometimes.
      - vkou 3y ago
        I think they understand it, they just don't give a shit, because they aren't the people being targeted.
    - saiya-jin 3y ago
      I dont think they realize long term consequences, life and politics aint tiktok where 10 second attention span is normalized or even cool. Shit has consequences for decades, but nobody knows them. I dont have an answer. I personally moved away from my home country (Slovakia) almost 2 decades away, thinking far right is probably the biggest long term threat with causing some civil war with our big Roma population. Oh boy was I wrong, far right is now completely managed by russian troll farms now, they literally jump as russians whistle (an expression back home), having some utterly illogical positions. You look left, there is a guy completely interwined with 'ndrangheta who probably will win, murdering journalists, managing economy so badly that Romania took us over. Right is this above. Both love russia in fact. Nothing competent in between. People voted last time for cca new face and he turned to be some bipolar less than useless freak who just pissed off literally everybody left and right.
      - selimthegrim 3y ago
        What about the president who’s quitting?
  - jmopp 3y ago
- pgeorgi 3y ago
  > And those voters are voting! That's why it's even more important to go vote this time, and for a party that will likely make the cut. For all intents and purposes, votes for the everybody-knows-they-will-be-<5% parties are lost votes, with the only difference to "not voting" that there's a buck or so per voter for those parties' piggy-banks. The rumor that invalidating the ballot makes any difference makes a reappearance every few years, so for clarity: The same applies to invalid votes, which end up being just a line-item in some statistic nobody cares about.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Absolutely agree. And there are only so many above 5% parties, so the choice actually isn't really that hard.

pxtail 3y ago

> With great success regarding the containment of the far right, they poll quite often on second place now. So why is this happening? Isn't it a sign that they are proposing ideas more attractive to more and more people? Or alternatively people are becoming skeptical about ideas and policies realized so far by current government over the years?

bradley13 3y ago
The success of the far right in Europe is driven by migration. Huge numbers of economic migrants make their way illegally to Europe. They have little education and no useful work skills. WTF are we supposed to do with them? The correct solution is to send illegal migrants right back to Africa. However, only the far right parties dare say that - hence, the increasing support they are getting, despite their other positions.
- hef19898 3y ago
  The latest increase in popularity of the AfD is in part due to the question of home heating devices...
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  > The correct solution is to send illegal migrants right back to Africa. However, only the far right parties dare say that - hence, the increasing support they are getting, despite their other positions. In case you're unaware, the reason Europe has its current asylum standards largely because of what happened between 1933-1945. So would your proposed solution be: 1. Deny asylum to anyone and everyone, even those fleeing genocide ("Sorry that happened to you, we don't have room here!"), or 2. Implement a color chart a la Family Guy [1], so only the "right people" can come in? [1] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/family-guy-skin-color-chart https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/family-guy-skin-color-chart
  - blockmarker 3y ago
    The idea that we should allow our countries and our way of life to be ruined because of something that happened 70 years ago is absurd.

thefounder 3y ago

[flagged]

bemusedthrow75 3y ago
It's because of where Turkey is geographically. That is all it is about. It's all it's ever been about, and the UK is not alone in this capitulation.
whimsicalism 3y ago
Without cooperation from Turkey, they wouldn’t even need to take a boat - they could just do land crossings. Do Europeans not realize the sheer number of refugees that Turkey is sheltering in place of them?
- esafak 3y ago
  The official figure is five million; mostly from Syria. https://teyit.org/dosya/turkiyedeki-siginmaci-sayisi-veriler-ne-soyluyor https://teyit.org/dosya/turkiyedeki-siginmaci-sayisi-veriler...
pjc50 3y ago
Undocumented people can't legitimately enter a country other than their country of origin, which works in both directions. In order to ship people "back" you have to do so directly, including the cooperation of their government to verify that they are in fact their nationals.
- thefounder 3y ago
  I think you can detain them until they provide documentation. Not sending them back just encourages more people to come in, even if the journey is hard(i.e they are held up at various borders such Turkey). I don't see many illegal immigrants in UAE/Dubai for example.
  - n4r9 3y ago
    > I don't see many illegal immigrants in UAE/Dubai for example. How would you know? And is this a fair comparison? I've heard that the country relies heavily on South Asian labourers with terrible working conditions, as well as housemaids who are effectively imprisoned by their employers. It's a huge section of the economy. I wouldn't be surprised if the government makes it pretty easy to enter legally, or if a bunch of labourers are flying under the radar without the government caring. I decided to search for some facts and found the following: * Immigrants, particularly from India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan, comprise over 90 percent of the country's private workforce [0] * In 2013, the UAE had the fifth-largest international migrant stock in the world with 7.8 million migrants (out of a total population of 9.2 million) [0] * About 65,000 unauthorized migrants — including those who entered the country illegally, visa over-stayers, migrants working on tourist visas, and others — currently reside in the UAE, according to official estimates (unofficial estimates run up to 135,000). [0] * An unknown but likely significant number of migrants lack any identification papers after having “absconded” or abandoned abusive employers who withhold their passports [0] * More than 10,500 illegal residents were prosecuted in the UAE in 2022, according to authorities.[1] * In December 2012, the government announced a two-month amnesty program allowing unauthorized migrant workers to regularize their situations or leave the country without punishment. * In August 2018 the government repeated this amnesty. [3] * The UAE Government exempts fines for Illegal Foreigners/residents, under these conditions: your Emirates ID or Work Permit has expired, you are Workers who run away from sponsors and violate employment contracts. [4] [0] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/labor-migration-united-arab-emirates-challenges-and-responses https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/labor-migration-unit... [1] https://www.khaleejtimes.com/life-and-living/visa-and-immigration-in-uae/uae-visa-overstayers-part-time-workers-among-over-10500-illegal-residents-caught-in-2022 https://www.khaleejtimes.com/life-and-living/visa-and-immigr... [2] https://sojo.net/articles/how-united-arab-emirates-country-90-percent-immigrants-handles-immigration https://sojo.net/articles/how-united-arab-emirates-country-9... [3] https://www.stalawfirm.com/en/news/view/illegal-immigration-amnesty-in-the-uae.html https://www.stalawfirm.com/en/news/view/illegal-immigration-... [4] https://kemlu.go.id/dubai/en/news/7262/illegal-foreigners-exemption-program-issued-by-the-uae-government https://kemlu.go.id/dubai/en/news/7262/illegal-foreigners-ex...

fakedang 3y ago

> Rant over. If Western democracies don't start to stand up for our proclaimmed values, we will loose what little soft power we have left. Don't worry, to the rest of the developing world, Western democracies are already considered to be a bunch of moralizing hypocrites, looking to impose their erstwhile colonial tendencies in other ways. Oh, and you guys are a laughing stock with the recent immigration issues, what with Lampedusa being showcased front and center of the news. You guys ship your garbage to other poorer countries in some sort of wretched don't ask, don't tell policy, then blame those same countries for polluting the earth. Meanwhile a bunch of clowns in your countries inconvenience the rest of the populace by sticking themselves to the roads as a "sign of protest". To quote Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed, the UAE foreign minister, "the next generation of terrorists will be from Europe and the West". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-dV4m43xZmY Get over it, you guys are already a joke, already on the decline. Get out of your city shells and walk the rural areas a bit to see how your fellow countrymen actually feel about the policies of your government. Of how the common man has been continually shafted while you preach and vacillate about human rights. I look forward to the amount of PhD dissertations that will study the decline of Europe and the West over the post-GFC decade. Rant over.

unethical_ban 3y ago
[flagged]
- fakedang 3y ago
  I'm Indian, been living in Europe and Switzerland for almost the past decade. I've spent a considerable time of my upbringing in South east Asia and the Middle East. I currently reside in Switzerland, specifically Zurich, with occasional stints to the US for business. I used to live in Germany prior to that. There used to be a time I dreamt of Western citizenship, but not anymore. Hope that answers your "question", although I'm certain you'd be loathe to reciprocate the same favor to me and reveal your origin. As for the climate hypocrisy argument, sorry to hurt your preconceived notions, but it's already proven that most of the waste that ends up dumped in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malaysia-environment-plastic-idUSKBN2BT1YT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malaysia-environment-plas... https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Philippines-slams-the-door-on-world-s-plastic-waste#:~:text=MANILA%20%2D%2D%20The%20Philippines%20is,moratorium%20on%20waste%2Drelated%20imports https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Philippines-sl.... https://e360.yale.edu/features/plastic-waste-imports-recycling-indonesia https://e360.yale.edu/features/plastic-waste-imports-recycli... But go on, vacillate and down vote in your self righteousness.

skippyboxedhero 3y ago

They aren't cooperative. The article explains they didn't actually do anything. But international agreements on policing essentially compel police here to act (but not necessarily charge or return people). For some reason, it is literally the same people who say that massive limitations need to be placed on native authority by international agreements, by courts (in some countries, depending on the legal system), etc. AND they say it is shocking that our police aren't sovereign...really? We cannot have it both ways...either you trust local authority or you trust the authority of foreign governments...it cannot be neither.

user_7832 3y ago

> The West is way to cooperative with regimes like Erdogan, Modi, the UAE or Qatar. To name a few. I fail to understand how Modi (and likely Erdogan), who are elected representatives, are at the same level as the UAE or Qatar. "Look at the human right violations they've done!" Not defending them, but then would you add Bush/Obama/Trump to the list (between Guantanamo Bay/all the middle east military "interventions") Or how Assange is still being treated by the US? I'm not trying to flame-bait, but if a leader is a democratically elected rep is conflated with autocracies that's not a sound argument. Especially when it's something more countries do than don't. (Disclaimer, am Indian)

hef19898 3y ago
I could throw in the likes of Nethanyahu and Orban and the Polish government, some are just further down the road to totalitarianism then others.
- user_7832 3y ago
  That is a fair point. So would it be more of a gradient than a line?
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Yes, it is. That is also why this development is so insisdious and dangerous.
colpabar 3y ago
In america, "democracy" actually means "democracy that is beneficial to us". If we don't approve of it, it's not real democracy, and we can just send in the CIA to make it the way we want it to be. It's why "populism" is so bad yet people here still reference the popular vote when their preferred candidate got more votes overall.
janc_ 3y ago
When you throw all credible newspaper editors/owners and many credible opposition politicians in prison based on made-up charges, like Erdogan has done, there can't be fair & democratic elections.

jiofj 3y ago

Nothing more democratic than asking for the "containment" of the side of politics that you don't like.

hef19898 3y ago
Sure, it is very democratic to try and contain ideas and movements that are fundentally oppossed to democratic rule.

hackandthink 3y ago

German citizen kidnapped by the CIA. Germany does not care: https://www.dw.com/en/kidnapped-by-the-cia-the-case-of-khaled-el-masri/a-61205120 https://www.dw.com/en/kidnapped-by-the-cia-the-case-of-khale...

hef19898 3y ago
Our current, well respected, head of state was foreign minister back then.

gumballindie 3y ago

[flagged]

hef19898 3y ago
Come again? Nor that it is perfect here, far from it, but what you say is just...
- gumballindie 3y ago
  Is what? Want me to list the number of people that I personally know have been abused, harrased, and monitored, just because they were the wrong kind of european? Ranging from PhD students, to software engineers, doctors, drivers, nurses, etc?
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Germany is what then? You want Germany to be exposed, go ahead. Because I never said racism doesn't exist here, because it does. As do other bad things. Your claim went a lot further than that so.
    - gumballindie 3y ago
      That's not racism, it goes well beyond that, nearing the territory of hostility.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> Erdogan, Modi, the UAE or Qatar. One of these is not like the others - India is a real democracy, even if it has issues.

helpfulContrib 3y ago
The omission of the KSA in this list is distinctly disappointing. It should be the #1 example of regimes we need to stop pandering to ..
- hef19898 3y ago
  How did I forget KSA...

asdff 3y ago

The west hardly cares about soft power. Can you give an example of some soft power that wasn't due to a legal agreement? I came up dry just now thinking of some example that the west has set that the rest of the world has followed purely on the idea of it alone. There's always some sort of formal agreement it seems when it comes to these sorts of things, e.g. forms of government, trade, mutually passed laws like drug scheduling or extradition.

helpfulContrib 3y ago

>Western democracies don't start to stand up for our proclaimmed values That ship has left the barn long, long ago. We can't provide military resources to a known fascist totalitarian-authoritarian dictatorship, so they can enact genocide, and still proclaim ourselves on the 'right' side of history. The illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003: same. The funding and arming of ISIS. The destruction of Libya. We lost our moral altitude long, long ago - and its not coming back. As this story demonstrates, we in the West have gotten far, far too complacent about totalitarian-authoritarianism, such that we just accept it when it happens to us, at the airport, etc.

Ekaros 3y ago
I think it could well be argued that the "West" never even had moral values. Just look at WW2 and their failure to liberate Eastern Europe and regain lands conquered by Stalin... After that it really was more about their benefits and than any real values held.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Well, there was a reason the continuation of WW2 against the USSR was called "Operation Unthinkable". There was simply no way anybody could afford to start a land war against the USSR in 1945. But yes, the Western values always have been over valued (no pun intended). Just how much over valued becomes clearer by the day. Still, democracy is the best available form of government, and there have been serious progress in tue last decades. I just wished tze West would wake up and start to live those proclaimed values (which aren't bad at all) and not just so lip service.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    They still had other half of population with suffrage left. And wouldn't value of democracy mean that also sacrificing them would have been morally correct way to spread democracy? Just arm them and send to frontlines.