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It is probably hard to compete with old investments that are payed off already? Prices should rise as maintenance takes its toll. Fundamentally, farmers are va

It is probably hard to compete with old investments that are payed off already? Prices should rise as maintenance takes its toll. Fundamentally, farmers are valeuing their work way to low and our work way to high. How many loc of C# do I need for a bottle of milk? The countryside need to squeeze us the city dwellers abit more. The income disparity allows for it and the countryside need to be able to flourish too.

mrpopo 3y ago
High food prices make for angry voters, though.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Right. Then import more slave labor to keep costs down. /s
  - Paul_S 3y ago
    That is literally what we've been doing in the UK for decades. It works!
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      So has Germany and any other wealthy nation. Locals don't want to work for poverty wages but there's a virtually unlimited number of desperate people worldwide willing to. That was my point.
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  People here in Norway have complained about the price of food for ages. Farmers likewise have complained a lot about their low pay relative to workload. Some years ago I met some french folks who had recently landed a job here in Norway. They invited me for dinner which we prepared together, and I noticed they had gone to one of the food markets and gotten some quality ingredients. So we ended up talking about the price of food. They mentioned that when they moved here they were shocked at how expensive food was. However, after a little while they realized that they spent way less in terms of percentage of their income on food compared to what they used to do in France. In France they had spent around 15% on food, and if they did the same here then all of a sudden food here didn't seem more expensive than in France. In comparison, most Norwegians spend around 5% of their income on food. Farmers generally have the prices they get set by the government. From what I can tell what has happened is that we've gotten used to not spend a lot on food (relative to the french say), the government hasn't given the farmers a lot, meanwhile the "middle-men" has grown a lot and take a lot more of the pie compared to before. For example, a while ago the government reduced the VAT on food from 25% to 12%, and while food prices in the shops dropped right away, it didn't take long before they had crept back up...
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    French farmers get a lot of subsidies form the state and the EU, and start violent protests when their standards get threatened.
  - Martinussen 3y ago
    I believe the SSB (Statistics Norway) numbers are more like ~10% for food and non-alcoholic drinks [1], it depends a lot on what you look at. Culturally the Mediterraneans have a very different relationship to food - but looking at Eurostat, we're basically on the low end of average [2]? (Also, the VAT reduction in light of the recent govt-assembled expert panel arguing for the exact opposite as one of the best ways of taxing high-income high-consumption households without hurting lower income groups is... fun.) -- [1] https://www.ssb.no/nasjonalregnskap-og-konjunkturer/nasjonalregnskap/artikler/dette-bruker-nordmenn-penger-pa https://www.ssb.no/nasjonalregnskap-og-konjunkturer/nasjonal... [2] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/DDN-20230201-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/D...
    - magicalhippo 3y ago
      I used the numbers I recalled being quoted in the news at the time, which also matched my own food expenses. I assumed it was just food, while the SSB number includes non-alcoholic drinks as you say, and we're quite fond of sodas over here[1]. [1]: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highest-levels-of-soft-drink-consumption.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highe...
    - gottorf 3y ago
      Romania is a clear outlier in that Eurostat source. I wonder why that is?
    - rmah 3y ago
      This graph will make things a bit clearer... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-expenditure-vs-gdp https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-expenditure-vs-gdp
- Ekaros 3y ago
  High prices is acceptable reality. Unaffordable prices is when you get the problems. And there is quite a bit difference between those.
Dudester230602 3y ago
Let's redistribute the farm land equally first though. And stop the farming subsidies.
dauertewigkeit 3y ago
Cheap food prices are a very good thing. The farmers who are struggling are the ones with unsustainable business models. The answer for them is to join forces. Small time farming is a not viable anymore and it benefits nobody to try to keep it going. Most of these small timers are also way outdated in their knowledge and methods.
- jfk13 3y ago
  This sounds uncomfortably like a call for more of the consolidation and industrialisation of farming, in the name of efficiency, that has been devastating to our environment.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > that has been devastating to our environment Nothing inherent to economies of scale is devastating our environment. Companion planting, soil stewardship and water management each benefit from scale.
    - rikketikm 3y ago
      If they are applied, yes.
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      True. It’s just that so far in agriculture, economies of scale have been let loose without much governing for ecology.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > so far in agriculture, economies of scale have been let loose without much governing for ecology Sure. But scale isn't the problem. (Focussing on its is counterproductive. Amidst falling efficiency, no population will choose long-term ecological impact over short-term food availability.) Solve the problem directly: incentivize land owners to steward their land. Regulate where needed. Improve agricultural education.
delfinom 3y ago
The big problem for farmers is they have to sell to distributors/processors. Supermarkets don't want to deal with 100 different farmers per produce item. In the last few decades, those entities have merged into megacorp regional and national monopolies. They are effectively fucking the farmer and the consumer. https://time.com/6171326/meat-beef-industry-congress/ https://time.com/6171326/meat-beef-industry-congress/ >Over the past three decades, as the largest four beef-packing firms have amassed control of 82% of the U.S. beef market >Since 1980, an average of nearly 17,000 cattle ranchers have gone out of business each year, the report said. >Meanwhile, some of the biggest meat-processing companies—Tyson, JBS, Marfrig, and Seaboard—have seen their gross profits increase by more than 120% collectively since before the pandemic, and their net income skyrocket 500%, This also goes beyond the meat industry of course and extends into everything farming.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Articles that do not reference profit margins are clickbait garbage. All of the above companies have sub 5% profit margins, for many years. If you think you can operate a successful business on even lower profit margins, good luck. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TSN/tyson-foods/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TSN/tyson-foods/pr... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/JBSAY/jbs-sa/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/JBSAY/jbs-sa/profi... https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/MRRTY/financials https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/MRRTY/financials https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/SEB/seaboard/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/SEB/seaboard/profi...
boringg 3y ago
It's the farming industry thats squeezing the farmer. The hardware, seeds and fertilizer. My feeling is that farmers are similar to employees they have no collective power to control prices where the John Deere's and Monsantos of the world push prices onto farmers. The buyers of product have pricing power (similar to how wal-mart squeeze's supplier with their buying power).

mrpopo 3y ago

High food prices make for angry voters, though.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Right. Then import more slave labor to keep costs down. /s
- Paul_S 3y ago
  That is literally what we've been doing in the UK for decades. It works!
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    So has Germany and any other wealthy nation. Locals don't want to work for poverty wages but there's a virtually unlimited number of desperate people worldwide willing to. That was my point.
magicalhippo 3y ago
People here in Norway have complained about the price of food for ages. Farmers likewise have complained a lot about their low pay relative to workload. Some years ago I met some french folks who had recently landed a job here in Norway. They invited me for dinner which we prepared together, and I noticed they had gone to one of the food markets and gotten some quality ingredients. So we ended up talking about the price of food. They mentioned that when they moved here they were shocked at how expensive food was. However, after a little while they realized that they spent way less in terms of percentage of their income on food compared to what they used to do in France. In France they had spent around 15% on food, and if they did the same here then all of a sudden food here didn't seem more expensive than in France. In comparison, most Norwegians spend around 5% of their income on food. Farmers generally have the prices they get set by the government. From what I can tell what has happened is that we've gotten used to not spend a lot on food (relative to the french say), the government hasn't given the farmers a lot, meanwhile the "middle-men" has grown a lot and take a lot more of the pie compared to before. For example, a while ago the government reduced the VAT on food from 25% to 12%, and while food prices in the shops dropped right away, it didn't take long before they had crept back up...
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  French farmers get a lot of subsidies form the state and the EU, and start violent protests when their standards get threatened.
- Martinussen 3y ago
  I believe the SSB (Statistics Norway) numbers are more like ~10% for food and non-alcoholic drinks [1], it depends a lot on what you look at. Culturally the Mediterraneans have a very different relationship to food - but looking at Eurostat, we're basically on the low end of average [2]? (Also, the VAT reduction in light of the recent govt-assembled expert panel arguing for the exact opposite as one of the best ways of taxing high-income high-consumption households without hurting lower income groups is... fun.) -- [1] https://www.ssb.no/nasjonalregnskap-og-konjunkturer/nasjonalregnskap/artikler/dette-bruker-nordmenn-penger-pa https://www.ssb.no/nasjonalregnskap-og-konjunkturer/nasjonal... [2] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/DDN-20230201-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/D...
  - magicalhippo 3y ago
    I used the numbers I recalled being quoted in the news at the time, which also matched my own food expenses. I assumed it was just food, while the SSB number includes non-alcoholic drinks as you say, and we're quite fond of sodas over here[1]. [1]: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highest-levels-of-soft-drink-consumption.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highe...
  - gottorf 3y ago
    Romania is a clear outlier in that Eurostat source. I wonder why that is?
  - rmah 3y ago
    This graph will make things a bit clearer... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-expenditure-vs-gdp https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-expenditure-vs-gdp
Ekaros 3y ago
High prices is acceptable reality. Unaffordable prices is when you get the problems. And there is quite a bit difference between those.

Dudester230602 3y ago

Let's redistribute the farm land equally first though. And stop the farming subsidies.

dauertewigkeit 3y ago

Cheap food prices are a very good thing. The farmers who are struggling are the ones with unsustainable business models. The answer for them is to join forces. Small time farming is a not viable anymore and it benefits nobody to try to keep it going. Most of these small timers are also way outdated in their knowledge and methods.

jfk13 3y ago
This sounds uncomfortably like a call for more of the consolidation and industrialisation of farming, in the name of efficiency, that has been devastating to our environment.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > that has been devastating to our environment Nothing inherent to economies of scale is devastating our environment. Companion planting, soil stewardship and water management each benefit from scale.
  - rikketikm 3y ago
    If they are applied, yes.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    True. It’s just that so far in agriculture, economies of scale have been let loose without much governing for ecology.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > so far in agriculture, economies of scale have been let loose without much governing for ecology Sure. But scale isn't the problem. (Focussing on its is counterproductive. Amidst falling efficiency, no population will choose long-term ecological impact over short-term food availability.) Solve the problem directly: incentivize land owners to steward their land. Regulate where needed. Improve agricultural education.

delfinom 3y ago

The big problem for farmers is they have to sell to distributors/processors. Supermarkets don't want to deal with 100 different farmers per produce item. In the last few decades, those entities have merged into megacorp regional and national monopolies. They are effectively fucking the farmer and the consumer. https://time.com/6171326/meat-beef-industry-congress/ https://time.com/6171326/meat-beef-industry-congress/ >Over the past three decades, as the largest four beef-packing firms have amassed control of 82% of the U.S. beef market >Since 1980, an average of nearly 17,000 cattle ranchers have gone out of business each year, the report said. >Meanwhile, some of the biggest meat-processing companies—Tyson, JBS, Marfrig, and Seaboard—have seen their gross profits increase by more than 120% collectively since before the pandemic, and their net income skyrocket 500%, This also goes beyond the meat industry of course and extends into everything farming.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
Articles that do not reference profit margins are clickbait garbage. All of the above companies have sub 5% profit margins, for many years. If you think you can operate a successful business on even lower profit margins, good luck. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TSN/tyson-foods/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TSN/tyson-foods/pr... https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/JBSAY/jbs-sa/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/JBSAY/jbs-sa/profi... https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/MRRTY/financials https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/MRRTY/financials https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/SEB/seaboard/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/SEB/seaboard/profi...

boringg 3y ago

It's the farming industry thats squeezing the farmer. The hardware, seeds and fertilizer. My feeling is that farmers are similar to employees they have no collective power to control prices where the John Deere's and Monsantos of the world push prices onto farmers. The buyers of product have pricing power (similar to how wal-mart squeeze's supplier with their buying power).