8 ms·

I think about this pretty often from the opposite perspective. As a frequent user of software, I can't get over how much it all sucks. Nearly every nontrivial p

by 63 3y ago

I think about this pretty often from the opposite perspective. As a frequent user of software, I can't get over how much it all sucks. Nearly every nontrivial piece of software I've ever used has had annoying and frustrating bugs and it feels to me like that's only getting worse. I agree that there's no correct software and I think the software engineering discipline needs to be blamed more for it. I don't think we deserve these salaries just to churn out broken code. I love programming but you can bet that the second there's an AI that can write perfect code, I'm advocating for it to replace us all because I'm tired of broken software.

pvdoom 3y ago
Well, there is a massive force that acts directly against not doing broken code - people(read managers and stakeholders) don't want to wait, they want the value for their money now, and from their perspective a certain degree of brokenness is fine
- pixl97 3y ago
  As long as it works "well enough" a broken product that ships now is better than a perfect product that never ships.
  - pvdoom 3y ago
    Yes, but also this very easily turns into shipping absolute crap, that in itself can cause a good concept to flop. There is a balance to be had, and at least some decent minimum requirements on what is good enough to ship. You neither want to overdosing, nor ship the first draft that sort of kinda works, and that second thing happens way too often.
ozim 3y ago
What software are you using and what were last 10 frustrating bugs you encountered? I find it fascinating because my use of software seems bug free in last 5-10 years. It is hard for me to run nowadays into a frustrating bug. When I was in high school there were just loads of bugs and everything seemed broken it was 2005ish and before. Windows was crashing now and again, had to reinstall frequently, software was crashing taking my work with it so I still have compulsive ctrl-s tick.
- RoyalHenOil 3y ago
  I couldn't tell you the last 10 bugs I saw (they are too frequent and varied to memorize), but here are the most common bugs I run into: - Firefox randomly freezes up on Android (Google Pixel 6a), and then sometimes this crashes my phone and causes it to spontaneously restart. This usually happens at least once a day, often more, despite being very widely reported for a very long time. - Assorted Adobe software develops strange behavior after it has been open for a while (selected items stop showing as selected, some tool or editing technique spontaneously stops working, exported images are borked, pressing ctrl+S reports that it has saved the file but it actually has not, etc). I have probably seen 50+ unique failure states over the last couple of years. I am affected at least a couple times a week, and I have learned to restart my software several times a day as a preventative measure. - On desktop (Windows), some website will fail to load something or it may display bizarre behavior (erratic scrolling long after the page has loaded, back button stops working, links stop working, video playback stops working, etc.). Usually reloading the webpage fixes it, but sometimes the tab itself has broken or the browser has to be restarted. Other times, it's a consistent bug in the website and there is nothing to do but wait a couple days for them to fix it. I usually see website/browser issues like these about once a week or two. It's better than the 90s, but it's still pretty bad and could be way better (as proven by all the software/systems/sites out there that don't have so many bugs).
- KronisLV 3y ago
  > What software are you using and what were last 10 frustrating bugs you encountered? I actually tried writing a section of my blog called "Everything is Broken" to cover some of the ways software breaks in (as well as some issues in general): https://blog.kronis.dev/everything%20is%20broken https://blog.kronis.dev/everything%20is%20broken Unfortunately, there are so many bugs out there, that I only write about the things that are annoying enough to push my hand. Some of the last things that happened to me: * Ubuntu LTS updates broke my GPU drivers, preventing the server from starting up (among other things) * Debian updates made some unnecessary piece of software start listening on port 25, thus breaking my mailserver in Docker * OpenProject packaged PostgreSQL inside of a single container, except that didn't bother setting up automatic data migration for new major version * Vector maps are somehow way more laggy than raster tile based maps, horrible user experience on mobile for me (video included) * a trailing comma in Visual Studio Code configuration file made fonts end up being non-monospaced * Kdenlive (probably due to ffmpeg) failed to correctly apply text titles on top of a video at the correct times * containers break due to different file system permission models on Window and Linux, bind mounted files have incorrect line endings * Nginx crashes the entire web server if something like 1 out of 20 reverse proxied domains doesn't have a successful DNS lookup on startup * Grav (blogging software) can have changes be made to the install without admin authorization, my blog got vandalized * Oracle database randomly dropped connections, some relation to a generated column I've also had issues with GRUB, disk management in Linux, Nextcloud, Libre Office, OpenCV, Docker Swarm and pretty much every class of software (desktop, web, CLI tools, GUI stuff, OS components) out there - sometimes in pretty exciting ways of them breaking! I also have a folder on my computer where I collect screenshots of software breaking out in the wild, currently it has 143 images, though perhaps that's a bit too much for blog posts. Currently the last 10 there are: * Mozilla Observatory failing to analyze my site due to their own CSP being broken (script-src) * PHP install failing because the ondrej/ubuntu PPA failing to work like it should * my bank login page having an untranslated text string for one of the options: #xml-dtd.LOGIN-TEXTS.LOGINEPARAKSTS * my mobile service provider telling me that I've used 212166% of my mobile data * me being unable to modify a Visual Studio Build Tools install locally because they want to update their installer but I'm offline * Windows 11 Explorer breaking the file path bar and showing me two overlapping text strings for some reason * Oracle not giving me my OCA cert because my name contains non-ASCII symbols * the War Thunder game telling me that I have 2147483647 crew available for my tank * OpenProject functionality to move multiple issues failing... despite them having a dialog exactly for that * installing a Ruby Gem following official SQLite instructions results in UDS:Trojan-Downloader.Win64.Alien.eg/ef being detected Aside from that, perhaps my favorite bug is this: https://i.imgur.com/97wu8j5.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/97wu8j5.jpeg
jongjong 3y ago
Fully resonates with me. The complexity and bloat of many modern software has gotten out of control to the point that even users end up being victims; in spite of all the additional effort, workarounds and automated testing undertaken to try to shield them from it. Developers are fallible humans and almost every single developer tends to underestimate the complexity and difficulty of what they're dealing with. Even those developers who are naturally good at coding are nowhere near where they need to be to produce merely correct code. Not outstanding, readable code, just correct code. Modern software has become an inseparable amalgamation of people and code because the code on its own is just not good enough. DAOs which can operate on their own with minimal to no human intervention are still a pipe dream.
- pixl97 3y ago
  Hey, did you hear about the company that wrote perfect software? No, they went out of business to some other company that wrote imperfect software with a lot more features a lot faster! Especially in the '90s I remember hearing the "Why does everyone use X, it sucks and it crashes", and yet whatever X was tended to have a broad range of features clients needed.
dkersten 3y ago
I recently watched a video about craftspeople who spent a lifetime mastering their particular craft and one was a Japanese calligraphy brush maker who had been working on a particular brush for 25 years. He called it “no compromise craftsmanship”. It made me wonder what a “no compromise craftsmanship” computer or software would look like. For one, it would never truly get done, there’s always more to do, but then again I guess that’s the same with the 25 year calligraphy brush.
- eszed 3y ago
  > It made me wonder what a “no compromise craftsmanship” computer or software would look like. Dwarf Fortress fulfills each point of your criteria, and some more that I could add. It's an epic achievement. I don't play it. I've never invested the brain cycles it would take to learn the interface, and I know that if I did I'd fall into a deep, deep hole that'd compromise every other priority in my life.
  - dkersten 3y ago
    Oh, yes! DF is an excellent example. I don’t play it either, I tried it once or twice and it was just too much for me. I might try their new graphical steam version that they released last year sometime, it looks a little more accessible.

by 63 3y ago

pvdoom 3y ago

Well, there is a massive force that acts directly against not doing broken code - people(read managers and stakeholders) don't want to wait, they want the value for their money now, and from their perspective a certain degree of brokenness is fine

pixl97 3y ago
As long as it works "well enough" a broken product that ships now is better than a perfect product that never ships.
- pvdoom 3y ago
  Yes, but also this very easily turns into shipping absolute crap, that in itself can cause a good concept to flop. There is a balance to be had, and at least some decent minimum requirements on what is good enough to ship. You neither want to overdosing, nor ship the first draft that sort of kinda works, and that second thing happens way too often.

ozim 3y ago

What software are you using and what were last 10 frustrating bugs you encountered? I find it fascinating because my use of software seems bug free in last 5-10 years. It is hard for me to run nowadays into a frustrating bug. When I was in high school there were just loads of bugs and everything seemed broken it was 2005ish and before. Windows was crashing now and again, had to reinstall frequently, software was crashing taking my work with it so I still have compulsive ctrl-s tick.

RoyalHenOil 3y ago
I couldn't tell you the last 10 bugs I saw (they are too frequent and varied to memorize), but here are the most common bugs I run into: - Firefox randomly freezes up on Android (Google Pixel 6a), and then sometimes this crashes my phone and causes it to spontaneously restart. This usually happens at least once a day, often more, despite being very widely reported for a very long time. - Assorted Adobe software develops strange behavior after it has been open for a while (selected items stop showing as selected, some tool or editing technique spontaneously stops working, exported images are borked, pressing ctrl+S reports that it has saved the file but it actually has not, etc). I have probably seen 50+ unique failure states over the last couple of years. I am affected at least a couple times a week, and I have learned to restart my software several times a day as a preventative measure. - On desktop (Windows), some website will fail to load something or it may display bizarre behavior (erratic scrolling long after the page has loaded, back button stops working, links stop working, video playback stops working, etc.). Usually reloading the webpage fixes it, but sometimes the tab itself has broken or the browser has to be restarted. Other times, it's a consistent bug in the website and there is nothing to do but wait a couple days for them to fix it. I usually see website/browser issues like these about once a week or two. It's better than the 90s, but it's still pretty bad and could be way better (as proven by all the software/systems/sites out there that don't have so many bugs).
KronisLV 3y ago
> What software are you using and what were last 10 frustrating bugs you encountered? I actually tried writing a section of my blog called "Everything is Broken" to cover some of the ways software breaks in (as well as some issues in general): https://blog.kronis.dev/everything%20is%20broken https://blog.kronis.dev/everything%20is%20broken Unfortunately, there are so many bugs out there, that I only write about the things that are annoying enough to push my hand. Some of the last things that happened to me: * Ubuntu LTS updates broke my GPU drivers, preventing the server from starting up (among other things) * Debian updates made some unnecessary piece of software start listening on port 25, thus breaking my mailserver in Docker * OpenProject packaged PostgreSQL inside of a single container, except that didn't bother setting up automatic data migration for new major version * Vector maps are somehow way more laggy than raster tile based maps, horrible user experience on mobile for me (video included) * a trailing comma in Visual Studio Code configuration file made fonts end up being non-monospaced * Kdenlive (probably due to ffmpeg) failed to correctly apply text titles on top of a video at the correct times * containers break due to different file system permission models on Window and Linux, bind mounted files have incorrect line endings * Nginx crashes the entire web server if something like 1 out of 20 reverse proxied domains doesn't have a successful DNS lookup on startup * Grav (blogging software) can have changes be made to the install without admin authorization, my blog got vandalized * Oracle database randomly dropped connections, some relation to a generated column I've also had issues with GRUB, disk management in Linux, Nextcloud, Libre Office, OpenCV, Docker Swarm and pretty much every class of software (desktop, web, CLI tools, GUI stuff, OS components) out there - sometimes in pretty exciting ways of them breaking! I also have a folder on my computer where I collect screenshots of software breaking out in the wild, currently it has 143 images, though perhaps that's a bit too much for blog posts. Currently the last 10 there are: * Mozilla Observatory failing to analyze my site due to their own CSP being broken (script-src) * PHP install failing because the ondrej/ubuntu PPA failing to work like it should * my bank login page having an untranslated text string for one of the options: #xml-dtd.LOGIN-TEXTS.LOGINEPARAKSTS * my mobile service provider telling me that I've used 212166% of my mobile data * me being unable to modify a Visual Studio Build Tools install locally because they want to update their installer but I'm offline * Windows 11 Explorer breaking the file path bar and showing me two overlapping text strings for some reason * Oracle not giving me my OCA cert because my name contains non-ASCII symbols * the War Thunder game telling me that I have 2147483647 crew available for my tank * OpenProject functionality to move multiple issues failing... despite them having a dialog exactly for that * installing a Ruby Gem following official SQLite instructions results in UDS:Trojan-Downloader.Win64.Alien.eg/ef being detected Aside from that, perhaps my favorite bug is this: https://i.imgur.com/97wu8j5.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/97wu8j5.jpeg

jongjong 3y ago

Fully resonates with me. The complexity and bloat of many modern software has gotten out of control to the point that even users end up being victims; in spite of all the additional effort, workarounds and automated testing undertaken to try to shield them from it. Developers are fallible humans and almost every single developer tends to underestimate the complexity and difficulty of what they're dealing with. Even those developers who are naturally good at coding are nowhere near where they need to be to produce merely correct code. Not outstanding, readable code, just correct code. Modern software has become an inseparable amalgamation of people and code because the code on its own is just not good enough. DAOs which can operate on their own with minimal to no human intervention are still a pipe dream.

pixl97 3y ago
Hey, did you hear about the company that wrote perfect software? No, they went out of business to some other company that wrote imperfect software with a lot more features a lot faster! Especially in the '90s I remember hearing the "Why does everyone use X, it sucks and it crashes", and yet whatever X was tended to have a broad range of features clients needed.

dkersten 3y ago

I recently watched a video about craftspeople who spent a lifetime mastering their particular craft and one was a Japanese calligraphy brush maker who had been working on a particular brush for 25 years. He called it “no compromise craftsmanship”. It made me wonder what a “no compromise craftsmanship” computer or software would look like. For one, it would never truly get done, there’s always more to do, but then again I guess that’s the same with the 25 year calligraphy brush.

eszed 3y ago
> It made me wonder what a “no compromise craftsmanship” computer or software would look like. Dwarf Fortress fulfills each point of your criteria, and some more that I could add. It's an epic achievement. I don't play it. I've never invested the brain cycles it would take to learn the interface, and I know that if I did I'd fall into a deep, deep hole that'd compromise every other priority in my life.
- dkersten 3y ago
  Oh, yes! DF is an excellent example. I don’t play it either, I tried it once or twice and it was just too much for me. I might try their new graphical steam version that they released last year sometime, it looks a little more accessible.