3 ms·

"And that's when I believe people do have a somewhat best effort to maximize profits." Nope. I actually think that if you do scientific research as a company (

"And that's when I believe people do have a somewhat best effort to maximize profits." Nope. I actually think that if you do scientific research as a company (profit) it may make you less bad/less likely to do fraud compared to academia (non-profit). Reason is that there are more ways to punish you, employees, board, investors, etc in a profit seeking vehicle, and as a profit seeking vehicle being caught must be part of the profit seeking calculation – in the end, the world of reality/physics will weigh your contribution. I believe there is evidence that there is more fraudulent scientific research happening in non-profit vehicles/academia. Take for example an area where there are fewer profit seeking companies participating - social sciences. It's dominated by academia. Now look at the replication rate of social sciences.

spicymapotofu 3y ago
All three points in last paragraph seem wholy unrelated to each other and your larger point. I agreed with first half.
screye 3y ago
I have a simpler reason for the same belief. You can fake everything except a well designed A/B test. At FAANG scale, a statistically significant A/B test requirement will stop the worst fraud before it hits the user.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  And also - you can somewhat take care of bugs by evenly distributing them to your test & control group.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 3y ago
  FAANG engineers: “hold my beer” Seriously though, as a person who has built related systems at FAANG, yes this problem exists there. Your beautiful cathedral of an A/B testing framework is covered in knobs that are just perfect for p-hacking.
muzani 3y ago
I used to work data entry as a research assistant, for some non-profit academia. We saw flaws in the data collection - basically the people tasked to collect data were being lazy and some were making stuff up. We know the made up stuff when we see it. Outliers are fine and some groups do better than expected, but an entire group from one data collecter shouldn't be 100% outliers. But we had to enter the data anyway. We were told to smooth the bad data to what was expected. So the outliers that were low were smoothed high, the high outliers were left alone because they seemed right. But those of us who were spending hundreds of hours on data entry had an intuitive feel of what an outlier looked like. IMO everything should have been entered as is and the computer data would just be filtered out if it was deemed from a corrupt source. But the data in the computer was biased to match what the research wanted to prove. So I agree that non-profits can be corrupt too, just because of the incentives each part of the way. We were being paid about half a cent per column of data. So some assistants were lazy and filling in data that could be right, or skimming on fields like address which are longer and less likely to be flagged.
efitz 3y ago
Exactly this. So many people have the opinion that private research must be flawed because of the profit motive, but the profit motive ensures that someone will be motivated to take oversight seriously, and have the power to punish misbehavior. Free markets, as ugly as they are sometimes, are still the best way we have of ensuring that incentives align with outcomes.
- eru 3y ago
  You might like https://gwern.net/backstop https://gwern.net/backstop War also works, to a certain extent, as a source of truth to align incentives with outcomes. But it's horribly expensive even in terms of economics alone, not to mention the human tragedy. Luckily free markets work as a backstop, too. Add in free movement of people (who often want to come to better run places), and free movement of capital, and you have a winning combination. Another stroke of luck: even if you only implement a very partial version of 'free', you still get partial benefits. Slightly freer markets are typically slightly more efficient. It's not an all or nothing proposition.
metta2uall 3y ago
But work in social sciences will often be inherently harder to replicate due to, for example, groups of human beings being more complex than groups of proteins - so there are a lot more variables, confounding factors, difficulties doing double-blind randomised trials, and so on...
- eru 3y ago
  Yes, but that's why the companies like Google or Facebook spend so much time and effort on their social science experiments. Granted, they are mostly interested in a very small sliver of social science: 'how can you get people to directly or indirectly spend more time online and look at more ads'; but they are very, very interested in getting robust results that replicate well. They are also interested in figuring out how the results vary between different cultures and over time.
jcranmer 3y ago
I think it's true that industry is more likely to produce reliable research compared to academia, but for a different reason. In academia, you essentially have the student who does the work, the professor, and the person who funded the grant, and that's essentially the sum total of people supervising the data. There's not a lot of people to call you out on fudged (or outright faked) data, and all of them are likely to be very invested in the success of the research. Turn to industry, and you have a similar set of people--the worker, the manager, and the head of the research department--except maybe a few more levels of manager (depending on the scale of the project). But since the goal is usually productization in industrial research, you usually have to turn to the product divisions and convince their executive chain as well of the merits of your research. And unlike everybody else mentioned so far, this group of people isn't invested in the success of the research. You might even be competing against other research teams that have different alternatives, and those people are going to be actively invested in the failure of your research so that their research makes it instead.
- eru 3y ago
  Also the guys in the product team are interested in whether they can actually reproduce eg your novel synthesis method for your favourite molecule on a large scale. The 'product' of academic research is a published paper. The product of industrial research is an actual product. (This does not apply when your research is about eg effectiveness of a new drug. The product people can sell that drug on the strength of that research. Whether that research replicates or not is only of indirect concern in that case.)
jonlucc 3y ago
Completely anecdotally, I find this to be true. I do pre-clinical research (disclaimer: for a pharma company), and if you hand me a paper describing some research result in my field, it’s much more likely to reproduce in my hands if it’s from industry. I know from talking to my academic research friends that there are a ton of shortcuts, rotating inexperienced staff, and misaligned incentives. I’m not saying pharma is perfect, but in my experience, they’re more reproducible. Fwiw, I do not know of any data in my realm which have been molded, cherry picked, intentionally misrepresented, falsified, or otherwise fake or flawed. I don’t work with clinical trial data, so if that were happening, it wouldn’t be on my desk.
- RoyalHenOil 3y ago
  I used to work in agricultural R&D in the private sector, and we collaborated with several universities. The biggest difference I saw was that universities were very short-term focused, while we were more long-term focused. The universities had a constant churn of personnel, as new PhD candidates appeared and old ones left, whereas our own researchers and technicians stuck around for far longer. Additionally, they were so hyperfocused on grants and papers that they tended to not put as much effort into replication, since that didn't pay their bills. By comparison, we typically repeated our experiments ad nauseum; it was common for us to perform the same experiment twice a year (once in the northern hemisphere and then again in the southern hemisphere) for a decade or more, gradually iterating and refining our processes along the way. Even if we initially got negative results, we'd beat that dead horse for a few years to make sure. Occasionally it turned out not to be so dead after all.

spicymapotofu 3y ago

All three points in last paragraph seem wholy unrelated to each other and your larger point. I agreed with first half.

screye 3y ago

I have a simpler reason for the same belief. You can fake everything except a well designed A/B test. At FAANG scale, a statistically significant A/B test requirement will stop the worst fraud before it hits the user.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
And also - you can somewhat take care of bugs by evenly distributing them to your test & control group.
fshbbdssbbgdd 3y ago
FAANG engineers: “hold my beer” Seriously though, as a person who has built related systems at FAANG, yes this problem exists there. Your beautiful cathedral of an A/B testing framework is covered in knobs that are just perfect for p-hacking.

muzani 3y ago

I used to work data entry as a research assistant, for some non-profit academia. We saw flaws in the data collection - basically the people tasked to collect data were being lazy and some were making stuff up. We know the made up stuff when we see it. Outliers are fine and some groups do better than expected, but an entire group from one data collecter shouldn't be 100% outliers. But we had to enter the data anyway. We were told to smooth the bad data to what was expected. So the outliers that were low were smoothed high, the high outliers were left alone because they seemed right. But those of us who were spending hundreds of hours on data entry had an intuitive feel of what an outlier looked like. IMO everything should have been entered as is and the computer data would just be filtered out if it was deemed from a corrupt source. But the data in the computer was biased to match what the research wanted to prove. So I agree that non-profits can be corrupt too, just because of the incentives each part of the way. We were being paid about half a cent per column of data. So some assistants were lazy and filling in data that could be right, or skimming on fields like address which are longer and less likely to be flagged.

efitz 3y ago

Exactly this. So many people have the opinion that private research must be flawed because of the profit motive, but the profit motive ensures that someone will be motivated to take oversight seriously, and have the power to punish misbehavior. Free markets, as ugly as they are sometimes, are still the best way we have of ensuring that incentives align with outcomes.

eru 3y ago
You might like https://gwern.net/backstop https://gwern.net/backstop War also works, to a certain extent, as a source of truth to align incentives with outcomes. But it's horribly expensive even in terms of economics alone, not to mention the human tragedy. Luckily free markets work as a backstop, too. Add in free movement of people (who often want to come to better run places), and free movement of capital, and you have a winning combination. Another stroke of luck: even if you only implement a very partial version of 'free', you still get partial benefits. Slightly freer markets are typically slightly more efficient. It's not an all or nothing proposition.

metta2uall 3y ago

But work in social sciences will often be inherently harder to replicate due to, for example, groups of human beings being more complex than groups of proteins - so there are a lot more variables, confounding factors, difficulties doing double-blind randomised trials, and so on...

eru 3y ago
Yes, but that's why the companies like Google or Facebook spend so much time and effort on their social science experiments. Granted, they are mostly interested in a very small sliver of social science: 'how can you get people to directly or indirectly spend more time online and look at more ads'; but they are very, very interested in getting robust results that replicate well. They are also interested in figuring out how the results vary between different cultures and over time.

jcranmer 3y ago

I think it's true that industry is more likely to produce reliable research compared to academia, but for a different reason. In academia, you essentially have the student who does the work, the professor, and the person who funded the grant, and that's essentially the sum total of people supervising the data. There's not a lot of people to call you out on fudged (or outright faked) data, and all of them are likely to be very invested in the success of the research. Turn to industry, and you have a similar set of people--the worker, the manager, and the head of the research department--except maybe a few more levels of manager (depending on the scale of the project). But since the goal is usually productization in industrial research, you usually have to turn to the product divisions and convince their executive chain as well of the merits of your research. And unlike everybody else mentioned so far, this group of people isn't invested in the success of the research. You might even be competing against other research teams that have different alternatives, and those people are going to be actively invested in the failure of your research so that their research makes it instead.

eru 3y ago
Also the guys in the product team are interested in whether they can actually reproduce eg your novel synthesis method for your favourite molecule on a large scale. The 'product' of academic research is a published paper. The product of industrial research is an actual product. (This does not apply when your research is about eg effectiveness of a new drug. The product people can sell that drug on the strength of that research. Whether that research replicates or not is only of indirect concern in that case.)

jonlucc 3y ago

Completely anecdotally, I find this to be true. I do pre-clinical research (disclaimer: for a pharma company), and if you hand me a paper describing some research result in my field, it’s much more likely to reproduce in my hands if it’s from industry. I know from talking to my academic research friends that there are a ton of shortcuts, rotating inexperienced staff, and misaligned incentives. I’m not saying pharma is perfect, but in my experience, they’re more reproducible. Fwiw, I do not know of any data in my realm which have been molded, cherry picked, intentionally misrepresented, falsified, or otherwise fake or flawed. I don’t work with clinical trial data, so if that were happening, it wouldn’t be on my desk.

RoyalHenOil 3y ago
I used to work in agricultural R&D in the private sector, and we collaborated with several universities. The biggest difference I saw was that universities were very short-term focused, while we were more long-term focused. The universities had a constant churn of personnel, as new PhD candidates appeared and old ones left, whereas our own researchers and technicians stuck around for far longer. Additionally, they were so hyperfocused on grants and papers that they tended to not put as much effort into replication, since that didn't pay their bills. By comparison, we typically repeated our experiments ad nauseum; it was common for us to perform the same experiment twice a year (once in the northern hemisphere and then again in the southern hemisphere) for a decade or more, gradually iterating and refining our processes along the way. Even if we initially got negative results, we'd beat that dead horse for a few years to make sure. Occasionally it turned out not to be so dead after all.