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This isn't C-18, this is way worse. The context is that there's a Canadian Sikh who has been calling for parts of India to secede from India. In response, Indi

This isn't C-18, this is way worse. The context is that there's a Canadian Sikh who has been calling for parts of India to secede from India. In response, India had him assassinated. India has laws on the books that allow them to remove content globally for things that violate Indian law. They enforce this on social media companies by requiring them to have employees on the country's soil in order to take them hostage. C-18 just says you can't post links on Facebook without news companies getting a cut of ad revenue. India wants all discussion of their assassination of a Canadian citizen to be censored, and they're currently getting that censorship.

ta8645 3y ago
> In response, India had him assassinated. Why do people keep saying this like it's a fact? Often it's the same people claiming that the murdered victim in Canada should be presumed innocent of the accusations levelled at him. In both cases, we should approach the accusations with skepticism.
- eynsham 3y ago
  Indian nationalist circles close to the government have been claiming credit on behalf of RAW for some time (e.g., https://tfipost.com/2023/06/raw-will-never-confirm-but-hardeep-singh-nijjar-looks-like-a-raw-hit/ https://tfipost.com/2023/06/raw-will-never-confirm-but-harde...).
  - ta8645 3y ago
    Even that article you cite stops short of saying that RAW was definitely the perpetrator. There are occasionally people who opportunistically claim credit for crimes they didn't commit, when it suits their politics. And even if it was someone in RAW, being "close to the government", does not necessarily mean it was ordered by that government. None of us have enough information to say for sure at this point. Yet people carry on like we know the truth without equivocation. The Prime Minister of Canada just did a state visit to India, where he was not warmly received, and made to look foolish on the world stage. So, he has his own political calculations in this affair, and is far from an objective arbiter of truth.
    - rajup 3y ago
      > The Prime Minister of Canada just did a state visit to India, where he was not warmly received, and made to look foolish on the world stage. So, he has his own political calculations in this affair, and is far from an objective arbiter of truth This 100%. It is the only reason why this mudslinging is happening now.
    - thorncorona 3y ago
      > The Prime Minister of Canada just did a state visit to India, where he was not warmly received, and made to look foolish on the world stage. So, he has his own political calculations in this affair, and is far from an objective arbiter of truth. This is a very bold claim.
      - ta8645 3y ago
        > This is a very bold claim. I don't think so. The state visit, and the bad PR it brought to the Canadian PM is well-reported publically. And the idea that a PM makes political calculations, which don't hold truth as more important than all other factors, wouldn't be controversial to most political observers.
      - yumraj 3y ago
        > This is a very bold claim. So is blaming this killing on India. No evidence has been presented. This was probably nothing but gang rivalry. Indo-Canadian organized crime or Punjabi-Canadian organized crime is made up predominantly of young adults and teenagers of Punjabi ethnic, cultural and linguistic background, typically ethnic Jatt’s. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Canadian_organized_crime https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Canadian_organized_crim...
        mthoms 3y ago
        This is overt racism.
        yumraj 3y ago
- FredPret 3y ago
  The Indian response was more or less an admission. "India’s ministry of external affairs said in a statement it “rejected” statements by Trudeau and his foreign minister, adding that allegations of India’s involvement in any act of violence in Canada are “absurd and motivated ” ... ... “ growing concern at the interference of Canadian diplomats in our internal matters and their involvement in anti-India activities” [0] TLDR: "We didn't do it and he was a bad guy anyway!" [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/18/credible-evidence-india-behind-killing-of-canadian-sikh-leader-says-trudeau https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/18/credible-evide...
  - ta8645 3y ago
    > The Indian response was more or less an admission. The only way you could read that response as an admission is if you've already made up your mind before reading it.
- Pxtl 3y ago
  While PM Trudeau has offered no evidence, he's also unable to offer evidence when it's international intelligence data. Trudeau's poor relationship with India has been a constant scandal for his government. Similarly his junior coalition partner Jagmeet Singh, whos relationship with the international Sikh community has resulted in constant accusations of sympathy for Khalistani terrorists. Canada has a massive Indian diaspora, and they're Liberal voters. Pissing them off without merit would be very dangerous for the already-embattled PM So what I mean to say is: while he cannot provide justification, he would not have made this accusation lightly. Unfortunately this is not a court case so we will not get to know the details. It is what it is.
  - ta8645 3y ago
    You make some interesting, and good points; and that's perhaps reason to give some credence to the accusation. There are also some reasons to believe that the murdered victim, was not innocent of the charges levelled against him. But in both cases, we should stop short of saying we can say so for sure.
pcthrowaway 3y ago
> They enforce this on social media companies by requiring them to have employees on the country's soil in order to take them hostage Are you suggesting that India requires Facebook to employ people who reside in India in order to operate in India, and that they use those employees as hostages in order to coerce Facebook to succumb to their demands even when when those demands concern communication between non-Indian nationals residing outside of India? If so, I'd love to hear more about this; do you have any resources?
- mikeyouse 3y ago
  Musk obliquely referred to it when the last Indian censorship controversy came up; https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/elon-musk-says-not-possible-to-uphold-freedom-of-speech-in-india-dont-want-twitter-employees-to-go-to-jail-2358961-2023-04-12 https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/elon-musk-sa...
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-threatens-jail-for-facebook-whatsapp-and-twitter-employees-11614964542 https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-threatens-jail-for-facebo...
Pxtl 3y ago
For reference from those outside of Canada/India, when a region of Canada had a problem with a terrorist separatist group... well on the one hand we temporarily suspended civil liberties with the "war measures act". But on the other hand we also ran a referendum and asked if the public really wanted to leave. The separatists lost the referendum. Repeatedly. Particularly relevant since PM Trudeau's father was involved in handling that situation.
yumraj 3y ago
> In response, India had him assassinated. Where’s the evidence? Can you point to it.

ta8645 3y ago

> In response, India had him assassinated. Why do people keep saying this like it's a fact? Often it's the same people claiming that the murdered victim in Canada should be presumed innocent of the accusations levelled at him. In both cases, we should approach the accusations with skepticism.

eynsham 3y ago
Indian nationalist circles close to the government have been claiming credit on behalf of RAW for some time (e.g., https://tfipost.com/2023/06/raw-will-never-confirm-but-hardeep-singh-nijjar-looks-like-a-raw-hit/ https://tfipost.com/2023/06/raw-will-never-confirm-but-harde...).
- ta8645 3y ago
  Even that article you cite stops short of saying that RAW was definitely the perpetrator. There are occasionally people who opportunistically claim credit for crimes they didn't commit, when it suits their politics. And even if it was someone in RAW, being "close to the government", does not necessarily mean it was ordered by that government. None of us have enough information to say for sure at this point. Yet people carry on like we know the truth without equivocation. The Prime Minister of Canada just did a state visit to India, where he was not warmly received, and made to look foolish on the world stage. So, he has his own political calculations in this affair, and is far from an objective arbiter of truth.
  - rajup 3y ago
    > The Prime Minister of Canada just did a state visit to India, where he was not warmly received, and made to look foolish on the world stage. So, he has his own political calculations in this affair, and is far from an objective arbiter of truth This 100%. It is the only reason why this mudslinging is happening now.
  - thorncorona 3y ago
    > The Prime Minister of Canada just did a state visit to India, where he was not warmly received, and made to look foolish on the world stage. So, he has his own political calculations in this affair, and is far from an objective arbiter of truth. This is a very bold claim.
    - ta8645 3y ago
      > This is a very bold claim. I don't think so. The state visit, and the bad PR it brought to the Canadian PM is well-reported publically. And the idea that a PM makes political calculations, which don't hold truth as more important than all other factors, wouldn't be controversial to most political observers.
    - yumraj 3y ago
      > This is a very bold claim. So is blaming this killing on India. No evidence has been presented. This was probably nothing but gang rivalry. Indo-Canadian organized crime or Punjabi-Canadian organized crime is made up predominantly of young adults and teenagers of Punjabi ethnic, cultural and linguistic background, typically ethnic Jatt’s. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Canadian_organized_crime https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Canadian_organized_crim...
      - mthoms 3y ago
        This is overt racism.
        yumraj 3y ago
FredPret 3y ago
The Indian response was more or less an admission. "India’s ministry of external affairs said in a statement it “rejected” statements by Trudeau and his foreign minister, adding that allegations of India’s involvement in any act of violence in Canada are “absurd and motivated ” ... ... “ growing concern at the interference of Canadian diplomats in our internal matters and their involvement in anti-India activities” [0] TLDR: "We didn't do it and he was a bad guy anyway!" [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/18/credible-evidence-india-behind-killing-of-canadian-sikh-leader-says-trudeau https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/18/credible-evide...
- ta8645 3y ago
  > The Indian response was more or less an admission. The only way you could read that response as an admission is if you've already made up your mind before reading it.
Pxtl 3y ago
While PM Trudeau has offered no evidence, he's also unable to offer evidence when it's international intelligence data. Trudeau's poor relationship with India has been a constant scandal for his government. Similarly his junior coalition partner Jagmeet Singh, whos relationship with the international Sikh community has resulted in constant accusations of sympathy for Khalistani terrorists. Canada has a massive Indian diaspora, and they're Liberal voters. Pissing them off without merit would be very dangerous for the already-embattled PM So what I mean to say is: while he cannot provide justification, he would not have made this accusation lightly. Unfortunately this is not a court case so we will not get to know the details. It is what it is.
- ta8645 3y ago
  You make some interesting, and good points; and that's perhaps reason to give some credence to the accusation. There are also some reasons to believe that the murdered victim, was not innocent of the charges levelled against him. But in both cases, we should stop short of saying we can say so for sure.

pcthrowaway 3y ago

> They enforce this on social media companies by requiring them to have employees on the country's soil in order to take them hostage Are you suggesting that India requires Facebook to employ people who reside in India in order to operate in India, and that they use those employees as hostages in order to coerce Facebook to succumb to their demands even when when those demands concern communication between non-Indian nationals residing outside of India? If so, I'd love to hear more about this; do you have any resources?

mikeyouse 3y ago
Musk obliquely referred to it when the last Indian censorship controversy came up; https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/elon-musk-says-not-possible-to-uphold-freedom-of-speech-in-india-dont-want-twitter-employees-to-go-to-jail-2358961-2023-04-12 https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/elon-musk-sa...
HDThoreaun 3y ago
https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-threatens-jail-for-facebook-whatsapp-and-twitter-employees-11614964542 https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-threatens-jail-for-facebo...

Pxtl 3y ago

For reference from those outside of Canada/India, when a region of Canada had a problem with a terrorist separatist group... well on the one hand we temporarily suspended civil liberties with the "war measures act". But on the other hand we also ran a referendum and asked if the public really wanted to leave. The separatists lost the referendum. Repeatedly. Particularly relevant since PM Trudeau's father was involved in handling that situation.

yumraj 3y ago

> In response, India had him assassinated. Where’s the evidence? Can you point to it.