6 ms·

Like I mentioned in a related thread [1], I really want to see simulavr succeed. They started working on this stuff before anyone else did but one of my worries

by ajdude 3y ago

Like I mentioned in a related thread [1], I really want to see simulavr succeed. They started working on this stuff before anyone else did but one of my worries is that Apple and other big names are going to come in and establish the VR Computing market before the Simula one is launched. [1] SimulaVR: Headsets Delayed (simulavr.com) 8 points by Philpax 1 day ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37559316 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37559316

georgewsinger 3y ago
Appreciate your support. From our perspective, the Apple headset is more an "iPad replacement" than a "laptop replacement".[1] The Vision Pro is based on their iOS (iPad/iPhone) ecosystem for their 2D apps, so you won't be able to use powerhouse office apps. It seems instead more geared towards the passive consumption of information, entertainment, and casual gaming, whereas we're trying to build something that can realistically replace a (Linux) laptop. I'm not sure what Apple is thinking strategically, but they're structurally incentivized to cannibalize their iPad sales over their macbook sales (since their iPads are their weakest product in their lineup in terms of sales). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36326677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36326677
- papa_bear 3y ago
  For me personally, it’s appealing that it just provides a mirror to my existing MacBook. It gives me more flexibility on when to use glasses vs laptop screen, like if I need to take notes in a meeting/lecture hall.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  > The Vision Pro is based on their iOS (iPad/iPhone) ecosystem for their 2D apps, so you won't be able to use powerhouse office apps. Creators can use the Vision Pro as their Mac's display, and/or run Office directly on Vision Pro. https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-vision-pro-can-be-used-as-a-mac-display-heres-how-it-works https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-vision-pro-can-be-used-... https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/5/23749947/apple-vision-pro-headset-microsoft-word-excel-teams https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/5/23749947/apple-vision-pro-...
  - drcode 3y ago
    that's a terrible alternative, the helmet has enough horsepower to run anything a Mac can run this will be so annoyingly fiddly to set up, nobody is going to use it on a regular basis why would somebody buy a "pro" device that only lets them VNC into their laptop?
    - moron4hire 3y ago
      Not if you're programming your apps in Unity :P
    - kaliqt 3y ago
      People would buy it because Apple. I sincerely hope Apple isn't this dumb though. Luckily LG and Meta and Samsung and Google are not playing around and will force Apple's hand with the AVP or overtake Apple entirely.
      - drcode 3y ago
        Oh I agree that if headsets see any success in the next 5 years (I have my doubts after having owned and used many myself) then Apple will always be the "walled garden" alternative and capture a certain percentage of the market. But I think the "log into your laptop" feature they are pushing is not going to be a good experience, and is likely a feature they will never promote and will not invest any development effort into, after the initial launch.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      > that's a terrible alternative, the helmet has enough horsepower to run anything a Mac can run The SimulaVR can't even run Office natively, right? The hobbyists who purchase it will need to use LibreOffice or run Office until emulation, correct? In contrast, Vision Pro users will be able to run Microsoft Office natively, with an interface optimized for the device. Where we don't disagree: For you and other folks who need a literal desktop (nosetop?) PC, SimulaVR is clearly the answer.
      - 3y ago
- parl_match 3y ago
  > It seems instead more geared towards the passive consumption of information, entertainment, and casual gaming, whereas we're trying to build something that can realistically replace a (Linux) laptop. FWIW, it appears that Apple themselves don't see it as that. They are focusing on consumption for the initial release, but there are clear plans to bring "full" macos apps to Vision Pro. They haven't released everything, but what you need to know is in the category they're placing AVP: computer. They refer to it as a computer, repeatedly. Not a mobile device. And, all of their computers run Xcode. I would be very surprised if we don't hear more about that by next year.
  - kaliqt 3y ago
    Can you confirm they want to do that though? I was suspicious that they are stupid enough to think that this cannibalizing Macbook sales is a valid reason to gimp it like they do the iPad. However, this tech (AR/VR) is much much bigger than traditional computing and is going to replace the aforementioned and more. So I sincerely hope that I can do development, pull up a terminal, an so on within the device. That's going to be extremely important I think to use this as a remote working machine (which was my hope for years).
    - p1necone 3y ago
      > However, this tech (AR/VR) is much much bigger than traditional computing and is going to replace the aforementioned and more. Commercial consumer VR has been available for the better part of a decade now and this doesn't seem even close to happening.
      - Nevermark 3y ago
        Changes like this go nowhere, then happen rapidly. Price is too high, features too few, distinct advantages under compelling, and ergonomics too nomic ... until they aren't. In other words, its a big change of form and function, not to mention the physics tradeoffs of these products, so it makes sense that the right combo is taking a while to fall into place. If Apple customers, who have the shiny shells to shell out, fall in love with their devices, that will mean a lot.
- npunt 3y ago
  Disagree, I think this is not a good read on Apple strategy and you may be heeding the wrong lessons in computing history. 1. The passive vs active framing applies primarily to non-Pro iPads. I don't think it can be reasonably argued the $3k Vision Pro is attempting to cannibalize low end iPads. iPad Pros are very different beasts that are designed for a particular type of creative output, and are very capable general purpose computing devices now. 2. There's no particular incentive to cannibalize iPad over Mac, its hard to fathom what dimension that makes sense on. They're happy to cannibalize any product, but their main MO is 'look what cool shit we can do with the latest tech' and Vision Pro is today's version of that. Apple is demonstrably way more interested in building out iOS/iPadOS and we've seen that over the past 10 years, to the point Mac users had to basically revolt to get attention. 3. Of course Vision Pro is based on iPad ecosystem, as its a far more modern set of conventions better suited to mixed modal input than Mac. That isn't a reflection of VP's purpose, but of engineering and design realities - it's far easier to grow iPad/iOS into a top tier spatial computing OS and ecosystem. While MacOS is wonderful, it's really a product of a particular conception of computing, and shoehorning a 40 year old desktop OS paradigm into entirely new input modalities and ergonomic contexts makes little sense. The puck isn't going anywhere new, the desktop OS modality is baked. Apps will need to adapt to the wondrous new capabilities and constraints of the platform. Looking at your presentation [1] it's clear the ergonomics are going to be a sticking point, which is a combined hardware & app ecosystem problem: the novelty of windows everywhere bumps up against the human factors / ergonomic fatigue constraints of moving one's head around around more than a few degrees (and whatever you do, don't optimize for looking up!), and app windows with tiny UI elements are going to be similarly fatiguing and unable to adapt to the promise and limitations in accuracy of gaze tracking. There's a reason WinCE's desktop OS paradigms failed in PDAs whereas iOS succeeded - you need to reinvent the experience when you move modalities. I would argue the exact same thing will happen in AR/VR: sticking with a desktop OS paradigm is a losing proposition. Just my 2c. Personally I really want to see a variety of offerings and possibilities in the market but I also want them to be based on sound reasoning and approach, which I go into a bit in this essay on category-defining products [2]. [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/seeking-investment/ https://simulavr.com/blog/seeking-investment/ [2] https://nickpunt.com/blog/category-defining-products/ https://nickpunt.com/blog/category-defining-products/
- jlaporte 3y ago
  MS Office has been available for iOS for just over a decade (June 2013).[1] So it will be on Vision Pro at launch. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office#Mobile_versions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office#Mobile_versio...
- ramblerman 3y ago
  Wow, I wish you all the best with this product, but your view of what apple intends with the vision pro is either intentionally naive or wishful thinking. I see the vision pro 3-5 years from now being part of anyone's workflow that currently uses 3+ screens. And I don't see how this kickstarter competes. So just arguing "yeah but apple din't think of ..." is not encouraging.
coderintherye 3y ago
>before anyone else did Not disputing your claim per se, but Google had a project called Daydream back at least as early as 2017 (though seems earlier) and rolled that into Area 120 projects. They canned it at some point in 2021 I believe. Whereas SimulaVR seems to have started working on this in 2018 per their YC app (but perhaps earlier?) https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/wiki/YCW19-Application https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/wiki/YCW19-Application
- ajdude 3y ago
  I own a daydream, you use it by putting your phone in the visor and using the phone as the headset. It was fun until they started dropping support for everything, and it started to happen much earlier than 2021z SimulaVR is creating a full computer built into a VR headset for production work.
verdverm 3y ago
speak of the devil, https://www.visor.com/ https://www.visor.com/ opened up pre-orders today, deliveries tbd 2024 Very close to the Vision Pro for 1/5 the price, acts more like a peripheral and works on the 3 major operating systems. It's (supposedly) also going to be side-loadable and maybe even more hackable, OpenXR compatible It's by the folks who make the https://immersed.com/ https://immersed.com/ app MRTV interview from earlier today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ic_uqEGI18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ic_uqEGI18
- grogenaut 3y ago
  I tried immersed... the latency is a killer (in the bad way)... the bandwidth is a killer... the compute required to re-encode the video is a killer... I gave up. It was easier to flat pack a monitor or now get a 4k 17" monitor... I'm back to super pessimistic on this tech... I too want simula to ship but I keep also maxing out my laptop on ram and compute and cooling and battery... I'm rooting for them but I can't help in a financially signifigant method
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    >the latency is a killer >the bandwidth is a killer It sounds like a problem with your network. >the compute required to re-encode the video is a killer Your graphics card should be encoding the video.
    - grogenaut 3y ago
      I was trying to recreate my desktop, I have 4 2560x1440 monitors and 1 4k core monitor. Even with direct connect on my occulus to my laptop with a 2nd wifi, I was getting 5-30ms latency and lots of hiccups. It wasn't pleasent, definitely not as pleasent as just setting up a travel dell 2560x1440 monitor and nothing on the new 4k 17" I just picked up for $300 on amazon. The gpu on my laptop was also on fire and the machine was sluggish due to gpu issues, thermal issues, network issues. It was also a less pleasant and less quality experience than real physical monitors. I also tried it with my index on the beast desktop I have that has those physical monitors turning the monitors off and putting in dummy plugs (same as laptop). It sucked, my neck hurt, it was laggy, hard to position monitors which I had to do every time I set it up, and the resolution sucked compared to a physical monitor, and don't get me started on fots let alon comparing it to 43" 4k monitor. I spent a decent amount of time in discord with immersed trying to get it to work. It's just not meant to be currently. And for the same price as a occulus, same weight, smaller footprint (the occulus is huge in a backpack, a tablet monitor is just and extra half inch of laptop), I get a much better experience. Also my neck doesn't hurt, I can see the world, and it's much higher res.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by ajdude 3y ago

georgewsinger 3y ago

Appreciate your support. From our perspective, the Apple headset is more an "iPad replacement" than a "laptop replacement".[1] The Vision Pro is based on their iOS (iPad/iPhone) ecosystem for their 2D apps, so you won't be able to use powerhouse office apps. It seems instead more geared towards the passive consumption of information, entertainment, and casual gaming, whereas we're trying to build something that can realistically replace a (Linux) laptop. I'm not sure what Apple is thinking strategically, but they're structurally incentivized to cannibalize their iPad sales over their macbook sales (since their iPads are their weakest product in their lineup in terms of sales). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36326677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36326677

papa_bear 3y ago
For me personally, it’s appealing that it just provides a mirror to my existing MacBook. It gives me more flexibility on when to use glasses vs laptop screen, like if I need to take notes in a meeting/lecture hall.
CharlesW 3y ago
> The Vision Pro is based on their iOS (iPad/iPhone) ecosystem for their 2D apps, so you won't be able to use powerhouse office apps. Creators can use the Vision Pro as their Mac's display, and/or run Office directly on Vision Pro. https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-vision-pro-can-be-used-as-a-mac-display-heres-how-it-works https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-vision-pro-can-be-used-... https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/5/23749947/apple-vision-pro-headset-microsoft-word-excel-teams https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/5/23749947/apple-vision-pro-...
- drcode 3y ago
  that's a terrible alternative, the helmet has enough horsepower to run anything a Mac can run this will be so annoyingly fiddly to set up, nobody is going to use it on a regular basis why would somebody buy a "pro" device that only lets them VNC into their laptop?
  - moron4hire 3y ago
    Not if you're programming your apps in Unity :P
  - kaliqt 3y ago
    People would buy it because Apple. I sincerely hope Apple isn't this dumb though. Luckily LG and Meta and Samsung and Google are not playing around and will force Apple's hand with the AVP or overtake Apple entirely.
    - drcode 3y ago
      Oh I agree that if headsets see any success in the next 5 years (I have my doubts after having owned and used many myself) then Apple will always be the "walled garden" alternative and capture a certain percentage of the market. But I think the "log into your laptop" feature they are pushing is not going to be a good experience, and is likely a feature they will never promote and will not invest any development effort into, after the initial launch.
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    > that's a terrible alternative, the helmet has enough horsepower to run anything a Mac can run The SimulaVR can't even run Office natively, right? The hobbyists who purchase it will need to use LibreOffice or run Office until emulation, correct? In contrast, Vision Pro users will be able to run Microsoft Office natively, with an interface optimized for the device. Where we don't disagree: For you and other folks who need a literal desktop (nosetop?) PC, SimulaVR is clearly the answer.
    - 3y ago
parl_match 3y ago
> It seems instead more geared towards the passive consumption of information, entertainment, and casual gaming, whereas we're trying to build something that can realistically replace a (Linux) laptop. FWIW, it appears that Apple themselves don't see it as that. They are focusing on consumption for the initial release, but there are clear plans to bring "full" macos apps to Vision Pro. They haven't released everything, but what you need to know is in the category they're placing AVP: computer. They refer to it as a computer, repeatedly. Not a mobile device. And, all of their computers run Xcode. I would be very surprised if we don't hear more about that by next year.
- kaliqt 3y ago
  Can you confirm they want to do that though? I was suspicious that they are stupid enough to think that this cannibalizing Macbook sales is a valid reason to gimp it like they do the iPad. However, this tech (AR/VR) is much much bigger than traditional computing and is going to replace the aforementioned and more. So I sincerely hope that I can do development, pull up a terminal, an so on within the device. That's going to be extremely important I think to use this as a remote working machine (which was my hope for years).
  - p1necone 3y ago
    > However, this tech (AR/VR) is much much bigger than traditional computing and is going to replace the aforementioned and more. Commercial consumer VR has been available for the better part of a decade now and this doesn't seem even close to happening.
    - Nevermark 3y ago
      Changes like this go nowhere, then happen rapidly. Price is too high, features too few, distinct advantages under compelling, and ergonomics too nomic ... until they aren't. In other words, its a big change of form and function, not to mention the physics tradeoffs of these products, so it makes sense that the right combo is taking a while to fall into place. If Apple customers, who have the shiny shells to shell out, fall in love with their devices, that will mean a lot.
npunt 3y ago
Disagree, I think this is not a good read on Apple strategy and you may be heeding the wrong lessons in computing history. 1. The passive vs active framing applies primarily to non-Pro iPads. I don't think it can be reasonably argued the $3k Vision Pro is attempting to cannibalize low end iPads. iPad Pros are very different beasts that are designed for a particular type of creative output, and are very capable general purpose computing devices now. 2. There's no particular incentive to cannibalize iPad over Mac, its hard to fathom what dimension that makes sense on. They're happy to cannibalize any product, but their main MO is 'look what cool shit we can do with the latest tech' and Vision Pro is today's version of that. Apple is demonstrably way more interested in building out iOS/iPadOS and we've seen that over the past 10 years, to the point Mac users had to basically revolt to get attention. 3. Of course Vision Pro is based on iPad ecosystem, as its a far more modern set of conventions better suited to mixed modal input than Mac. That isn't a reflection of VP's purpose, but of engineering and design realities - it's far easier to grow iPad/iOS into a top tier spatial computing OS and ecosystem. While MacOS is wonderful, it's really a product of a particular conception of computing, and shoehorning a 40 year old desktop OS paradigm into entirely new input modalities and ergonomic contexts makes little sense. The puck isn't going anywhere new, the desktop OS modality is baked. Apps will need to adapt to the wondrous new capabilities and constraints of the platform. Looking at your presentation [1] it's clear the ergonomics are going to be a sticking point, which is a combined hardware & app ecosystem problem: the novelty of windows everywhere bumps up against the human factors / ergonomic fatigue constraints of moving one's head around around more than a few degrees (and whatever you do, don't optimize for looking up!), and app windows with tiny UI elements are going to be similarly fatiguing and unable to adapt to the promise and limitations in accuracy of gaze tracking. There's a reason WinCE's desktop OS paradigms failed in PDAs whereas iOS succeeded - you need to reinvent the experience when you move modalities. I would argue the exact same thing will happen in AR/VR: sticking with a desktop OS paradigm is a losing proposition. Just my 2c. Personally I really want to see a variety of offerings and possibilities in the market but I also want them to be based on sound reasoning and approach, which I go into a bit in this essay on category-defining products [2]. [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/seeking-investment/ https://simulavr.com/blog/seeking-investment/ [2] https://nickpunt.com/blog/category-defining-products/ https://nickpunt.com/blog/category-defining-products/
jlaporte 3y ago
MS Office has been available for iOS for just over a decade (June 2013).[1] So it will be on Vision Pro at launch. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office#Mobile_versions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office#Mobile_versio...
ramblerman 3y ago
Wow, I wish you all the best with this product, but your view of what apple intends with the vision pro is either intentionally naive or wishful thinking. I see the vision pro 3-5 years from now being part of anyone's workflow that currently uses 3+ screens. And I don't see how this kickstarter competes. So just arguing "yeah but apple din't think of ..." is not encouraging.

coderintherye 3y ago

>before anyone else did Not disputing your claim per se, but Google had a project called Daydream back at least as early as 2017 (though seems earlier) and rolled that into Area 120 projects. They canned it at some point in 2021 I believe. Whereas SimulaVR seems to have started working on this in 2018 per their YC app (but perhaps earlier?) https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/wiki/YCW19-Application https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/wiki/YCW19-Application

ajdude 3y ago
I own a daydream, you use it by putting your phone in the visor and using the phone as the headset. It was fun until they started dropping support for everything, and it started to happen much earlier than 2021z SimulaVR is creating a full computer built into a VR headset for production work.

verdverm 3y ago

speak of the devil, https://www.visor.com/ https://www.visor.com/ opened up pre-orders today, deliveries tbd 2024 Very close to the Vision Pro for 1/5 the price, acts more like a peripheral and works on the 3 major operating systems. It's (supposedly) also going to be side-loadable and maybe even more hackable, OpenXR compatible It's by the folks who make the https://immersed.com/ https://immersed.com/ app MRTV interview from earlier today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ic_uqEGI18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ic_uqEGI18

grogenaut 3y ago
I tried immersed... the latency is a killer (in the bad way)... the bandwidth is a killer... the compute required to re-encode the video is a killer... I gave up. It was easier to flat pack a monitor or now get a 4k 17" monitor... I'm back to super pessimistic on this tech... I too want simula to ship but I keep also maxing out my laptop on ram and compute and cooling and battery... I'm rooting for them but I can't help in a financially signifigant method
- charcircuit 3y ago
  >the latency is a killer >the bandwidth is a killer It sounds like a problem with your network. >the compute required to re-encode the video is a killer Your graphics card should be encoding the video.
  - grogenaut 3y ago
    I was trying to recreate my desktop, I have 4 2560x1440 monitors and 1 4k core monitor. Even with direct connect on my occulus to my laptop with a 2nd wifi, I was getting 5-30ms latency and lots of hiccups. It wasn't pleasent, definitely not as pleasent as just setting up a travel dell 2560x1440 monitor and nothing on the new 4k 17" I just picked up for $300 on amazon. The gpu on my laptop was also on fire and the machine was sluggish due to gpu issues, thermal issues, network issues. It was also a less pleasant and less quality experience than real physical monitors. I also tried it with my index on the beast desktop I have that has those physical monitors turning the monitors off and putting in dummy plugs (same as laptop). It sucked, my neck hurt, it was laggy, hard to position monitors which I had to do every time I set it up, and the resolution sucked compared to a physical monitor, and don't get me started on fots let alon comparing it to 43" 4k monitor. I spent a decent amount of time in discord with immersed trying to get it to work. It's just not meant to be currently. And for the same price as a occulus, same weight, smaller footprint (the occulus is huge in a backpack, a tablet monitor is just and extra half inch of laptop), I get a much better experience. Also my neck doesn't hurt, I can see the world, and it's much higher res.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]