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Absolutely. For anything internet-based (social media, chat, meetings etc.) web apps are vastly superior for this reason. In fact, anything which doesn't explic

Absolutely. For anything internet-based (social media, chat, meetings etc.) web apps are vastly superior for this reason. In fact, anything which doesn't explicitly need the richness of a true desktop GUI (e.g. Photoshop or games) should probably be a web app. In addition to the massive benefit of running browser-sandboxed, web apps are also: 1. Easier to start and stop (open/close a tab) 2. Less permanent (clear your browser's local storage and no data is left to stagnate on your hard drive) 3. Portable - no installation required 4. Cross-platform by nature of being a website And you're totally right about companies pushing desktop apps because they're more invasive. It's outrageous that a desktop app can access virtually anything on your system in a totally opaque way. Desktop computing needs a massive push towards finely-grained privacy/security controls in a similar way to how browsers work.

appplication 3y ago
Even mobile apps have much more finely grained privacy and security controls and sandboxing. It feels like we should have multiple classes of browser apps - consumer apps (Discord, Slack, Spotify, Steam, etc) that are more mobile-like in their explicit permissions and dev tools that carry warnings for their largely unbounded behavior. Or perhaps even have “dev mode” on your machine that opens up access to system processes etc, that is both opt in and timeboxed (I.e. enable dev mode for 8 hours). It’s also weird how I still go to, to me, random websites to download these apps (I trust Spotify.com, but having users google “Spotify” to find an app is ripe for supply chain attacking). The only time I ever visit some of these websites is to download their desktop app. In some sense, gaming has sort of figured this out as most everything comes through one of a handful of platforms nowadays (steam, gog, epic, etc). I’m sure there are lots of solutions here but I think the current state definitely could be significantly improved.
- sublinear 3y ago
  Centralizing everything into app stores benefits our corporate overlords more than anyone else. It gets even worse when every approved app has to depend on the platform's API. The privacy and security issues still exist, but now developers and users have to pay to for an untrusted app. Web apps don't have any of those problems.
  - MiguelX413 3y ago
    Neither do Linux distros
- nasso_dev 3y ago
  maybe wasm+wasi(x) would allow us to build an open "app store" platform or a sort of package manager for desktop apps? it could provide a cross platform, sandboxed alternative to Shipping Chromium, while still supporting web technologies to build the GUI (powered by the system's native web view?) i dont like having a centralized platform but i guess we could establish a standard file format (like .deb or AppImage?) or have a federated platform? i really know very little about all this though...
paulmd 3y ago
> Desktop computing needs a massive push towards finely-grained privacy/security controls in a similar way to how browsers work. Sure. That’s iOS app sandboxing. And people perpetually complain about the inconvenience of having each application in its own file space and having to click a button (or, gasp, go to the files app) to make data appear in another sandbox. If you can’t make the UX seamless, as in “the OS can read your mind and know which things to make available in the sandbox” then people will complain. And if you weaken that and start letting more through then you lose the benefits of sandboxing. It’s the same battle that seclinux has faced - secure configurations are often quite inconvenient.
- Avshalom 3y ago
  It occurs to me that there exists a fairly elegant UI trick to hide this: RiscOS had no save or load dialogs, everything was drag and drop to or from the file browser.
- orangea 3y ago
  IMO the solution is to give users the tools to run apps in a sandbox without forcing them to or making it the default. If an operating system like macos were to ship with a user-friendly UI to change what a given app has access to, then even relatively non-technical users might decide to e.g. turn off WhatsApp's access to various things if they happen to read a news article about the app's data collection. In addition if an OS provides a way for sandbox settings of apps to be changed, then something like "ublock origin for the OS" could be created, where someone maintains a list of what capabilities should be granted to various apps, and users can just install something once and forget about it to harden their system. Most users trust most of the apps installed on their computer, but might have a few things that they are suspicious of — such as things they have to install for school or work. Providing a way for users to restrict the capabilities of specific apps when they feel like they need it could be valuable. Linux already effectively has this because it has stuff like user namespaces and better support for controlling other processes using ptrace than other OSes. This enables users to use things like proot and bubblewrap to apply sandboxing when needed.
ziml77 3y ago
This misses that the browser sandbox doesn't include sandboxing internet access. I can't be sure that the application will never send what I enter into it out to the server that's hosting the app. Also any changes to the app's code are not obvious. I could be served different code each time I refresh the page, or it could be pulled in the background and evaled.
- cxr 3y ago
  > This misses that the browser sandbox doesn't include sandboxing internet access. I can't be sure that the application will never send what I enter into it out to the server Aside from the factual inaccuracy (Firefox has a "Work Offline" menu item), this is an irrational demerit. Other apps can do exactly the same things (and more); you're applying a double standard.
TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
Unless you want to touch USB (WebUSB sometimes work, sometimes don't) or Bluetooth - Good luck on iOS where Apple is not supporting BLE interface on purpose, but on Windows and Android situation is not much better. Even ChromeOS can't run Web Bluetooth properly. Supported on paper, does not work anyway.
- quicksave2k 3y ago
  May I ask you to elaborate on what is not working for you with WebUSB and Web Bluetooth? I'm surprised to hear ChromeOS can't run Web Bluetooth properly.
webworker 3y ago
> In fact, anything which doesn't explicitly need the richness of a true desktop GUI (e.g. Photoshop or games) should probably be a web app. I'm going to throw a bit of shade at Photoshop... remember how up through CS3 they actually did have a native interface? From CS4 and beyond it turned into cross-platform web gunk. Always disappointing to see. CS2 and CS3 felt so fluid on Mac OS X.

appplication 3y ago

Even mobile apps have much more finely grained privacy and security controls and sandboxing. It feels like we should have multiple classes of browser apps - consumer apps (Discord, Slack, Spotify, Steam, etc) that are more mobile-like in their explicit permissions and dev tools that carry warnings for their largely unbounded behavior. Or perhaps even have “dev mode” on your machine that opens up access to system processes etc, that is both opt in and timeboxed (I.e. enable dev mode for 8 hours). It’s also weird how I still go to, to me, random websites to download these apps (I trust Spotify.com, but having users google “Spotify” to find an app is ripe for supply chain attacking). The only time I ever visit some of these websites is to download their desktop app. In some sense, gaming has sort of figured this out as most everything comes through one of a handful of platforms nowadays (steam, gog, epic, etc). I’m sure there are lots of solutions here but I think the current state definitely could be significantly improved.

sublinear 3y ago
Centralizing everything into app stores benefits our corporate overlords more than anyone else. It gets even worse when every approved app has to depend on the platform's API. The privacy and security issues still exist, but now developers and users have to pay to for an untrusted app. Web apps don't have any of those problems.
- MiguelX413 3y ago
  Neither do Linux distros
nasso_dev 3y ago
maybe wasm+wasi(x) would allow us to build an open "app store" platform or a sort of package manager for desktop apps? it could provide a cross platform, sandboxed alternative to Shipping Chromium, while still supporting web technologies to build the GUI (powered by the system's native web view?) i dont like having a centralized platform but i guess we could establish a standard file format (like .deb or AppImage?) or have a federated platform? i really know very little about all this though...

paulmd 3y ago

> Desktop computing needs a massive push towards finely-grained privacy/security controls in a similar way to how browsers work. Sure. That’s iOS app sandboxing. And people perpetually complain about the inconvenience of having each application in its own file space and having to click a button (or, gasp, go to the files app) to make data appear in another sandbox. If you can’t make the UX seamless, as in “the OS can read your mind and know which things to make available in the sandbox” then people will complain. And if you weaken that and start letting more through then you lose the benefits of sandboxing. It’s the same battle that seclinux has faced - secure configurations are often quite inconvenient.

Avshalom 3y ago
It occurs to me that there exists a fairly elegant UI trick to hide this: RiscOS had no save or load dialogs, everything was drag and drop to or from the file browser.
orangea 3y ago
IMO the solution is to give users the tools to run apps in a sandbox without forcing them to or making it the default. If an operating system like macos were to ship with a user-friendly UI to change what a given app has access to, then even relatively non-technical users might decide to e.g. turn off WhatsApp's access to various things if they happen to read a news article about the app's data collection. In addition if an OS provides a way for sandbox settings of apps to be changed, then something like "ublock origin for the OS" could be created, where someone maintains a list of what capabilities should be granted to various apps, and users can just install something once and forget about it to harden their system. Most users trust most of the apps installed on their computer, but might have a few things that they are suspicious of — such as things they have to install for school or work. Providing a way for users to restrict the capabilities of specific apps when they feel like they need it could be valuable. Linux already effectively has this because it has stuff like user namespaces and better support for controlling other processes using ptrace than other OSes. This enables users to use things like proot and bubblewrap to apply sandboxing when needed.

ziml77 3y ago

This misses that the browser sandbox doesn't include sandboxing internet access. I can't be sure that the application will never send what I enter into it out to the server that's hosting the app. Also any changes to the app's code are not obvious. I could be served different code each time I refresh the page, or it could be pulled in the background and evaled.

cxr 3y ago
> This misses that the browser sandbox doesn't include sandboxing internet access. I can't be sure that the application will never send what I enter into it out to the server Aside from the factual inaccuracy (Firefox has a "Work Offline" menu item), this is an irrational demerit. Other apps can do exactly the same things (and more); you're applying a double standard.

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago

Unless you want to touch USB (WebUSB sometimes work, sometimes don't) or Bluetooth - Good luck on iOS where Apple is not supporting BLE interface on purpose, but on Windows and Android situation is not much better. Even ChromeOS can't run Web Bluetooth properly. Supported on paper, does not work anyway.

quicksave2k 3y ago
May I ask you to elaborate on what is not working for you with WebUSB and Web Bluetooth? I'm surprised to hear ChromeOS can't run Web Bluetooth properly.

webworker 3y ago

> In fact, anything which doesn't explicitly need the richness of a true desktop GUI (e.g. Photoshop or games) should probably be a web app. I'm going to throw a bit of shade at Photoshop... remember how up through CS3 they actually did have a native interface? From CS4 and beyond it turned into cross-platform web gunk. Always disappointing to see. CS2 and CS3 felt so fluid on Mac OS X.