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What is that minefield? How is avoided by repackagers? Do they take legal liability of Oracle lawsuits related to Java?

by geodel 3y ago

belter 3y ago
"Oracle(Java) is knocking at my company's door and they want money." - https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/165kzxg/oraclejava_is_knocking_at_my_companys_door_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/165kzxg/oraclejav...
- kaba0 3y ago
  “I downloaded Photoshop and now adobe asks for its price”
  - freeone3000 3y ago
    The JDK is GPLv2, which means it can be legally redistributed without charge. Oracle puts their JDK release under a different license. Microsoft distributes the binaries under the GPL. It’s the same code going into the binary, but different license terms.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Oracle provides their builds for free, given you use their latest LTS release. But that’s apples to oranges comparison - that is an actual support release, meant for big enterprises that wants to point their fingers at someone on Christmas eve.
    - n2d4 3y ago
      OpenJDK (maintained by Oracle) is GPL, but Oracle JDK is a different codebase with different features under a commercial license. Oracle's OpenJDK builds are distributed under the GPL, like Microsoft's.
      - kaba0 3y ago
        You would be right, if you would have made this comment a bit more than a decade ago. The only remaining differences between OracleJDK and OpenJDK are logo, and trivial things - Oracle has opened up everything else.
        n2d4 3y ago
        As far as I'm aware, Oracle JDK gets fixes that OpenJDK doesn't, and is under a commercial license that's not GPL (even if it's free-as-in-beer under certain circumstances)? Is that wrong?
  - belltaco 3y ago
    Terrible take. Photoshop does not create and exploit confusion about how their products are free to use as much as Oracle does with Java. Photoshop also didn't sneakingly change terms from what used to be free without a proper notice while installing. Photoshop sales and marketing also don't do gotchas with crazy audits and threats of lawsuits. You don't need to buy Photoshop for all your employees if only a few use it.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      > Photoshop also didn't sneaking change terms from what used to be free Like making it even more free? You are literally free to use the “paid” OracleJDK on its latest LTS release up until the next LTS comes around+1 year.
      - desertlounger 3y ago
        The reference is to a previous licensing change, which made it less free, with Oracle shaking down groups using the Oracle JDK. They've changed their terms before and could do so again with future releases.
      - belltaco 3y ago
        https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58250782/which-free-version-of-java-can-i-use-for-production-environments-and-or-commerci https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58250782/which-free-vers...
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Right. So that’s the minefield, no? If you download from Oracle, it’s like Photoshop from Adobe. If you download from Amazon, it’s like gcc. But it’s the same software: near invisible difference. So that’s why you shouldn’t download from Oracle.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Are you a huge enterprise system that has to be able to call someone on some national holiday at 2AM? If no, then just do whatever you want - I don’t understand running to Amazon, when you can just do `apt install openjdk`, but whatever. There is way too much fuss around this non-issue. It’s the exact same software plus-minus a few bytes.
      - renewiltord 3y ago
        Ubuntu LTS does not have modern JDK. Amazon has Coretto distribution. Much better.
volkadav 3y ago
Oracle's stance on what contexts their JDK/JRE is free to use in is ... nuanced, and has changed in the past. While I don't wish to spread FUD, the thought of using it in a commercial environment in any fashion would give me pause. Playing around with Oracle on licensing is, as hobbies go, somewhere on my list of things to do down around making plutonium cocktails and alligator juggling. The other vendors have different (typically more explicitly open) licensing on their shipped artifacts. As ever, if it really matters, it's time to consult a legal professional in your jurisdiction to be sure instead of taking a random internet nerd's opinion on it. ;)
- pron 3y ago
  All those vendors offer Oracle software that's licensed to you by Oracle. Amazon, for example, cannot change the license on the Oracle software they're distributing because it's not their software. The Oracle license is a standard open-source license, but if it makes you feel better to download Oracle software with an Oracle license from some other company's website -- go for it, and you're welcome.
  - freeone3000 3y ago
    From the other website, it’s Oracle software under the GPLv2. From Oracle, it’s under the Oracle Binary Code License for Java (https://www.oracle.com/ca-en/downloads/licenses/binary-code-license.html https://www.oracle.com/ca-en/downloads/licenses/binary-code-...). These are NOT the same license. The GPL, for instance, does not allow after-the-fact fees.
    - 6581 3y ago
      Oracle OpenJDK: https://jdk.java.net https://jdk.java.net (GPLv2 + Classpath Exception) Oracle JDK: https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/downloads/ https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/downloads/ (Oracle No-Fee Terms and Conditions) The license you linked does not apply to current JDK versions at all.
    - palata 3y ago
      Hmm I think you are not right. If you go to https://jdk.java.net/21/ https://jdk.java.net/21/, the first sentence says that it is GPLv2 (+ Classpath exception, whatever that is).
n2d4 3y ago
There are two main branches of JDKs, OpenJDK and Oracle JDK (both maintained by Oracle). Builds for the former are open-source but only updated for 6 months after each release, while the latter is under a commercial license with 3+ years commercial long-term support for some versions. Projects like Eclipse Temurin (Adoptium) bring the LTS to OpenJDK. The underlying code is entirely open-source, so there is no licensing trouble. Hence, if you want to download OpenJDK, it's important to do it from Adoptium, as you won't get updates on java.net after a while.
kaba0 3y ago
Java’s reference implementation is OpenJDK, developed mostly by Oracle, and is completely open-source (GPL-2). One can optionally buy support for it, that’s the whole deal. Not that hard, but apparently this is a minefield for some..
- freeone3000 3y ago
  There’s that and there’s https://www.oracle.com/ca-en/downloads/licenses/binary-code-license.html https://www.oracle.com/ca-en/downloads/licenses/binary-code-... , where using the wrong runtime flag makes you owe money.
  - samus 3y ago
    Don't use them commercial features if you don't be want to pay for them. And don't download the Enterprise Oracle JRE from the Oracle website if you don't want to use them commercial features. We all should read terms&conditions more carefully.

What is that minefield? How is avoided by repackagers? Do they take legal liability of Oracle lawsuits related to Java?

by geodel 3y ago

What is that minefield? How is avoided by repackagers? Do they take legal liability of Oracle lawsuits related to Java?

"Oracle(Java) is knocking at my company's door and they want money." - https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/165kzxg/oraclejava_is_knocking_at_my_companys_door_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/165kzxg/oraclejav...

kaba0 3y ago
“I downloaded Photoshop and now adobe asks for its price”
- freeone3000 3y ago
  The JDK is GPLv2, which means it can be legally redistributed without charge. Oracle puts their JDK release under a different license. Microsoft distributes the binaries under the GPL. It’s the same code going into the binary, but different license terms.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Oracle provides their builds for free, given you use their latest LTS release. But that’s apples to oranges comparison - that is an actual support release, meant for big enterprises that wants to point their fingers at someone on Christmas eve.
  - n2d4 3y ago
    OpenJDK (maintained by Oracle) is GPL, but Oracle JDK is a different codebase with different features under a commercial license. Oracle's OpenJDK builds are distributed under the GPL, like Microsoft's.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      You would be right, if you would have made this comment a bit more than a decade ago. The only remaining differences between OracleJDK and OpenJDK are logo, and trivial things - Oracle has opened up everything else.
      - n2d4 3y ago
        As far as I'm aware, Oracle JDK gets fixes that OpenJDK doesn't, and is under a commercial license that's not GPL (even if it's free-as-in-beer under certain circumstances)? Is that wrong?
- belltaco 3y ago
  Terrible take. Photoshop does not create and exploit confusion about how their products are free to use as much as Oracle does with Java. Photoshop also didn't sneakingly change terms from what used to be free without a proper notice while installing. Photoshop sales and marketing also don't do gotchas with crazy audits and threats of lawsuits. You don't need to buy Photoshop for all your employees if only a few use it.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    > Photoshop also didn't sneaking change terms from what used to be free Like making it even more free? You are literally free to use the “paid” OracleJDK on its latest LTS release up until the next LTS comes around+1 year.
    - desertlounger 3y ago
      The reference is to a previous licensing change, which made it less free, with Oracle shaking down groups using the Oracle JDK. They've changed their terms before and could do so again with future releases.
    - belltaco 3y ago
      https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58250782/which-free-version-of-java-can-i-use-for-production-environments-and-or-commerci https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58250782/which-free-vers...
- renewiltord 3y ago
  Right. So that’s the minefield, no? If you download from Oracle, it’s like Photoshop from Adobe. If you download from Amazon, it’s like gcc. But it’s the same software: near invisible difference. So that’s why you shouldn’t download from Oracle.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Are you a huge enterprise system that has to be able to call someone on some national holiday at 2AM? If no, then just do whatever you want - I don’t understand running to Amazon, when you can just do `apt install openjdk`, but whatever. There is way too much fuss around this non-issue. It’s the exact same software plus-minus a few bytes.
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      Ubuntu LTS does not have modern JDK. Amazon has Coretto distribution. Much better.

volkadav 3y ago

Oracle's stance on what contexts their JDK/JRE is free to use in is ... nuanced, and has changed in the past. While I don't wish to spread FUD, the thought of using it in a commercial environment in any fashion would give me pause. Playing around with Oracle on licensing is, as hobbies go, somewhere on my list of things to do down around making plutonium cocktails and alligator juggling. The other vendors have different (typically more explicitly open) licensing on their shipped artifacts. As ever, if it really matters, it's time to consult a legal professional in your jurisdiction to be sure instead of taking a random internet nerd's opinion on it. ;)

pron 3y ago
All those vendors offer Oracle software that's licensed to you by Oracle. Amazon, for example, cannot change the license on the Oracle software they're distributing because it's not their software. The Oracle license is a standard open-source license, but if it makes you feel better to download Oracle software with an Oracle license from some other company's website -- go for it, and you're welcome.
- freeone3000 3y ago
  From the other website, it’s Oracle software under the GPLv2. From Oracle, it’s under the Oracle Binary Code License for Java (https://www.oracle.com/ca-en/downloads/licenses/binary-code-license.html https://www.oracle.com/ca-en/downloads/licenses/binary-code-...). These are NOT the same license. The GPL, for instance, does not allow after-the-fact fees.
  - 6581 3y ago
    Oracle OpenJDK: https://jdk.java.net https://jdk.java.net (GPLv2 + Classpath Exception) Oracle JDK: https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/downloads/ https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/downloads/ (Oracle No-Fee Terms and Conditions) The license you linked does not apply to current JDK versions at all.
  - palata 3y ago
    Hmm I think you are not right. If you go to https://jdk.java.net/21/ https://jdk.java.net/21/, the first sentence says that it is GPLv2 (+ Classpath exception, whatever that is).

n2d4 3y ago

There are two main branches of JDKs, OpenJDK and Oracle JDK (both maintained by Oracle). Builds for the former are open-source but only updated for 6 months after each release, while the latter is under a commercial license with 3+ years commercial long-term support for some versions. Projects like Eclipse Temurin (Adoptium) bring the LTS to OpenJDK. The underlying code is entirely open-source, so there is no licensing trouble. Hence, if you want to download OpenJDK, it's important to do it from Adoptium, as you won't get updates on java.net after a while.

kaba0 3y ago

Java’s reference implementation is OpenJDK, developed mostly by Oracle, and is completely open-source (GPL-2). One can optionally buy support for it, that’s the whole deal. Not that hard, but apparently this is a minefield for some..

freeone3000 3y ago
There’s that and there’s https://www.oracle.com/ca-en/downloads/licenses/binary-code-license.html https://www.oracle.com/ca-en/downloads/licenses/binary-code-... , where using the wrong runtime flag makes you owe money.
- samus 3y ago
  Don't use them commercial features if you don't be want to pay for them. And don't download the Enterprise Oracle JRE from the Oracle website if you don't want to use them commercial features. We all should read terms&conditions more carefully.