6 ms·

It’s a little bit of a complicated issue. On the one hand, my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American. That’s a totally normal thing, and i

It’s a little bit of a complicated issue. On the one hand, my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American. That’s a totally normal thing, and it’s weird to complain about it. In Japan, they were often confused about which of my names was personal and which was for my family, and they never quite figured out the deal with my middle name / initial. Cultures are different, and you can’t expect everyone in one country to know everything about another. On the other hand, some people make a big show out of not knowing how to pronounce common Indian names, and that strikes me as silly/microaggressive. Hindi is spelled phonetically in English, so it’s not very hard. On the third hand though, Chinese names are often spelled with a Romanization that wasn’t designed for use by English speakers, so of course they can’t do it. If you want them to not mangle your name, use the Yale Romanization. I think people want there to be a simple answer like “everyone just change your name to John Smith” or “if they can’t pronounce Xi Jinping, they’re racists” but simple answers don’t really apply. We’re all just going to muddle through the best we can.

kibwen 3y ago
> my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American I'd be interested to hear the story there. When it comes to surnames, AFAIK nearly every US state lets you put basically any arbitrary assembly of English characters as the last name for a child, with even fewer restrictions on the last names for adults.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- wrsh07 3y ago
  Ah but at immigration you may have been expected to spell your name and were sort of at the whim of the official (who was helping intake many people) Lots of reasons you might not have your official name written or heard correctly
- ssklash 3y ago
  I would assume the reason is not a legal one, but a cultural one, i.e. having a very obviously foreign name a few generations ago in the US might make you a target of discrimination. Changing something like "Alexei" to "Alex" would help you stand out less.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  My great grandfather emigrated as a young person and started using his father's patronym as his own last name instead of continuing to use his father's first name as his patronym. He could have kept the patronym tradition alive, but why? He was in America now, and once his kids were born, they mostly spoke English anyway.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English This isn’t the case. I have a formal background in linguistics and have a vague familiarity with the Indic branch of the Indo-European languages in general, and I still occasionally screw up in pronouncing Hindi (or other Indian languages’) words that are written in informal Latin transliteration. Most notably, whether the sound written <a> denotes [ə] or [aː] is often ambiguous.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  It's not ambiguous if the macrons are included, but yes, in everyday texts, the macrons are often dropped.
RandallBrown 3y ago
> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English, so it’s not very hard. In my experience it's extremely hard to get right. At one of my jobs pronunciation of Indian words (mostly food and names) was a fairly common topic of conversation and it was impossible for the non-Indians to get correct. To my American ear it usually sounded exactly the same (even if it wasn't me saying it) but they would always say it wasn't quite right.
- zffr 3y ago
  The reason for this is probably that Hindi has a few extra sounds that just don’t exist in English. For many consonants Hindi has 2 versions (aspirated and non-aspirated). It also has several different kinds of “d” sounds instead of just 1
- sbehere 3y ago
  I think certain sounds are hard for Western speakers to pronounce, while others are easy. Specifically, Hindi (and many other Sanskrit-derived languages) distinguish between some sounds (which have correspondingly different characters in the written script) that are often indistinguishable to Western ears. And if you can't hear the difference, you are unlikely to be able to say it right. These sounds typically come in groups of four. For example, there are 4 "T" sounds in Hindi: त थ ट ठ. If you pronounce each of these correctly, Indian ears will hear 4 distinct sounds. Western ears will typically hear the same sound 4 times. If they are listening attentively the second time around, they may be able to distinguish at most 2 different sounds, but not 4. Given this, Western speakers are unlikely to correctly pronounce a word containing one of these sounds. The good news is that even if a Western speaker has incorrect pronunciation, in the vast majority of cases native Hindi speakers would be able to understand what was meant.. so the communication still happens effectively. Furthermore, regardless of language, I like to believe that most native speakers will very much appreciate efforts to speak the language, no matter how mangled the pronunciation is.
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    > For example, there are 4 "T" sounds in Hindi: त थ ट ठ. Out of curiosity, are these distinguished as alveolar vs retroflex and aspirated vs non-aspirated?
javier_e06 3y ago
I agree on the "death by thousand cuts that people with foreign names experience in the US" It reminds me of the meme that reads: "You speak English because is the only language you know. I speak English because is the only language you know. We are not the same". Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity?
- kergonath 3y ago
  > Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity? I have an English nickname just for when I go to Starbucks abroad. It's much easier that way.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  My name is a totally bog standard American name and Starbucks or whoever cannot get it right if I just say it. I have internalized this now so I always say my name followed by spelling it (fortunately, it's very short). I think it's an important bit of context that even if your name is something like "Karen" or whatever, they will mishear it and misspell it as "Cathrine". It's not a unique microaggression imposed on people with names that are uncommon in the US.
  - rigrassm 3y ago
    Seconding this experience. My first name is "Ricky" and I very frequently have to correct people (mainly in drive throughs and over the phone) who repeat back to me "Britney" or "Nicky". Very possible I just suck at enunciating my name and no one has had the heart to tell me all these years.
kergonath 3y ago
> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English Reading English phonetically is highly non-trivial. Each vowel can be pronounced different ways depending on factors that are not always easy to understand, particularly for non-native speakers. Same for a lot of consonants. I have no clue which accent I am supposed to have when reading romanised Hindi. East coast American? Estuary English? British RP? Australian? That could be 4 different ways of pronouncing the letter "A". Hell, I am not even sure all Hindi speakers would agree on the pronunciation of a random word because of differing accents. > On the third hand though, Chinese names are often spelled with a Romanization that wasn’t designed for use by English speakers, so of course they can’t do it. If you want them to not mangle your name, use the Yale Romanization. You cannot expect people to know of any specific romanisation scheme. There are different ones, used by different people and in different contexts, and that are often at odds with the spelling of well known names (like famous people or cities). What's hilarious is people in a non-English speaking country, e.g. Germany or France, using the same romanisation as in English because it's "the correct way" and then getting the phonetics completely wrong. > I think people want there to be a simple answer like “everyone just change your name to John Smith” or “if they can’t pronounce Xi Jinping, they’re racists” but simple answers don’t really apply. We’re all just going to muddle through the best we can. Exactly. Ideally, it's best effort on both sides: don't be a dick if they pronounce your name wrong a couple of times and hopefully they won't be idiots either and at least try. As a non-native English speaker who's spent quite a few years in English-speaking countries, sometimes you roll your eyes and sometimes it's funny, but it is rarely worth fighting about pronunciation issues.
paulddraper 3y ago
> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English Bold of you to say it's possible to "spell phonetically in English"
- anotheruser13 3y ago
  The Japanese language enters and says, "Hold my beer."
  - earthboundkid 3y ago
    I think the Japanese have a good system internally. They convert foreign sounds into sounds that work in their language. Of course, this bites them in the ass when they try to actually speak a foreign language, but as long as you're speaking Japanese with some foreign words mixed in, it's fine and the system works.

kibwen 3y ago

> my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American I'd be interested to hear the story there. When it comes to surnames, AFAIK nearly every US state lets you put basically any arbitrary assembly of English characters as the last name for a child, with even fewer restrictions on the last names for adults.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
wrsh07 3y ago
Ah but at immigration you may have been expected to spell your name and were sort of at the whim of the official (who was helping intake many people) Lots of reasons you might not have your official name written or heard correctly
ssklash 3y ago
I would assume the reason is not a legal one, but a cultural one, i.e. having a very obviously foreign name a few generations ago in the US might make you a target of discrimination. Changing something like "Alexei" to "Alex" would help you stand out less.
earthboundkid 3y ago
My great grandfather emigrated as a young person and started using his father's patronym as his own last name instead of continuing to use his father's first name as his patronym. He could have kept the patronym tradition alive, but why? He was in America now, and once his kids were born, they mostly spoke English anyway.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English This isn’t the case. I have a formal background in linguistics and have a vague familiarity with the Indic branch of the Indo-European languages in general, and I still occasionally screw up in pronouncing Hindi (or other Indian languages’) words that are written in informal Latin transliteration. Most notably, whether the sound written <a> denotes [ə] or [aː] is often ambiguous.

earthboundkid 3y ago
It's not ambiguous if the macrons are included, but yes, in everyday texts, the macrons are often dropped.

RandallBrown 3y ago

> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English, so it’s not very hard. In my experience it's extremely hard to get right. At one of my jobs pronunciation of Indian words (mostly food and names) was a fairly common topic of conversation and it was impossible for the non-Indians to get correct. To my American ear it usually sounded exactly the same (even if it wasn't me saying it) but they would always say it wasn't quite right.

zffr 3y ago
The reason for this is probably that Hindi has a few extra sounds that just don’t exist in English. For many consonants Hindi has 2 versions (aspirated and non-aspirated). It also has several different kinds of “d” sounds instead of just 1
sbehere 3y ago
I think certain sounds are hard for Western speakers to pronounce, while others are easy. Specifically, Hindi (and many other Sanskrit-derived languages) distinguish between some sounds (which have correspondingly different characters in the written script) that are often indistinguishable to Western ears. And if you can't hear the difference, you are unlikely to be able to say it right. These sounds typically come in groups of four. For example, there are 4 "T" sounds in Hindi: त थ ट ठ. If you pronounce each of these correctly, Indian ears will hear 4 distinct sounds. Western ears will typically hear the same sound 4 times. If they are listening attentively the second time around, they may be able to distinguish at most 2 different sounds, but not 4. Given this, Western speakers are unlikely to correctly pronounce a word containing one of these sounds. The good news is that even if a Western speaker has incorrect pronunciation, in the vast majority of cases native Hindi speakers would be able to understand what was meant.. so the communication still happens effectively. Furthermore, regardless of language, I like to believe that most native speakers will very much appreciate efforts to speak the language, no matter how mangled the pronunciation is.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  > For example, there are 4 "T" sounds in Hindi: त थ ट ठ. Out of curiosity, are these distinguished as alveolar vs retroflex and aspirated vs non-aspirated?

javier_e06 3y ago

I agree on the "death by thousand cuts that people with foreign names experience in the US" It reminds me of the meme that reads: "You speak English because is the only language you know. I speak English because is the only language you know. We are not the same". Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity?

kergonath 3y ago
> Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity? I have an English nickname just for when I go to Starbucks abroad. It's much easier that way.
earthboundkid 3y ago
My name is a totally bog standard American name and Starbucks or whoever cannot get it right if I just say it. I have internalized this now so I always say my name followed by spelling it (fortunately, it's very short). I think it's an important bit of context that even if your name is something like "Karen" or whatever, they will mishear it and misspell it as "Cathrine". It's not a unique microaggression imposed on people with names that are uncommon in the US.
- rigrassm 3y ago
  Seconding this experience. My first name is "Ricky" and I very frequently have to correct people (mainly in drive throughs and over the phone) who repeat back to me "Britney" or "Nicky". Very possible I just suck at enunciating my name and no one has had the heart to tell me all these years.

kergonath 3y ago

> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English Reading English phonetically is highly non-trivial. Each vowel can be pronounced different ways depending on factors that are not always easy to understand, particularly for non-native speakers. Same for a lot of consonants. I have no clue which accent I am supposed to have when reading romanised Hindi. East coast American? Estuary English? British RP? Australian? That could be 4 different ways of pronouncing the letter "A". Hell, I am not even sure all Hindi speakers would agree on the pronunciation of a random word because of differing accents. > On the third hand though, Chinese names are often spelled with a Romanization that wasn’t designed for use by English speakers, so of course they can’t do it. If you want them to not mangle your name, use the Yale Romanization. You cannot expect people to know of any specific romanisation scheme. There are different ones, used by different people and in different contexts, and that are often at odds with the spelling of well known names (like famous people or cities). What's hilarious is people in a non-English speaking country, e.g. Germany or France, using the same romanisation as in English because it's "the correct way" and then getting the phonetics completely wrong. > I think people want there to be a simple answer like “everyone just change your name to John Smith” or “if they can’t pronounce Xi Jinping, they’re racists” but simple answers don’t really apply. We’re all just going to muddle through the best we can. Exactly. Ideally, it's best effort on both sides: don't be a dick if they pronounce your name wrong a couple of times and hopefully they won't be idiots either and at least try. As a non-native English speaker who's spent quite a few years in English-speaking countries, sometimes you roll your eyes and sometimes it's funny, but it is rarely worth fighting about pronunciation issues.

paulddraper 3y ago

> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English Bold of you to say it's possible to "spell phonetically in English"

anotheruser13 3y ago
The Japanese language enters and says, "Hold my beer."
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  I think the Japanese have a good system internally. They convert foreign sounds into sounds that work in their language. Of course, this bites them in the ass when they try to actually speak a foreign language, but as long as you're speaking Japanese with some foreign words mixed in, it's fine and the system works.