6 ms·

To be fair, this is how most "advanced" economies operate. It's identical in Australia (although there the consulting companies run the sweatshops directly so t

To be fair, this is how most "advanced" economies operate. It's identical in Australia (although there the consulting companies run the sweatshops directly so they can skim more cream off the top). Same in the UK.

moomin 3y ago
Well, the UK does both. It has both incredible barriers to entry that exclude anyone other than consulting firms whose central skills is dealing with them from participation, and it also has VIP lanes for routing work to your mates.
- ido 3y ago
  So why are online gov services still so much better in the uk then in Germany?
  - jetbooster 3y ago
    The only cynical solution I can think of is someone is getting obscenely rich by keeping Government Digital running effectively
  - michaelt 3y ago
    In terms of motivation, online services do save the government money on administration costs like manual data entry, costs of returning forms that have been filled out wrong, etc. And every government likes efficiency savings much more than increasing taxes or reducing government services. In terms of implementation, the government employs a small number of competent people directly - the "Government Digital Service" - who accomplish some projects. Other IT projects are done by organisations like Accenture, CSC, Atos Origin, Fujitsu and BT. They are generally paid more if the project is late or buggy, with predictable results. But they'll often produce something eventually, if enough money is thrown at them. The "VIP lanes for routing work to your mates" are more for things like buying overpriced PPE during the pandemic.
  - BucketsMcG 3y ago
    1) Most of uk.gov is actually designed and built in-house. 2) Germany, as a nation, got to about 1991 and collectively decided "This is nice, let's keep it like this". Even the most technologically progressive regions of Germany still think it's 1997. Elsewhere, it's like the wall never came down.
    - tormeh 3y ago
      Honestly, this just reflects the age of the population. Change is more painful when you're old, so stasis becomes more attractive. Usually Germans like the general idea of improvement, but they hate change.
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        Ah, so that's why Germany and Japan have such an easy trading relationship.
        tormeh 3y ago
        Yes, finally someone else with whom to fax.
        alex_suzuki 3y ago
        Anyone here who has written a fax gateway (receive TIFF of fax, do OCR, save somewhere and convert to PDF)? raises hand (fax is alive and well in Switzerland)
        ethbr1 3y ago
        This boggles the mind on the cultural-legal implications in fax-centric countries of doing: Fax to TIFF to OCR to PDF to internet transfer to TIFF to fax But anyone still requiring fax would probably just be happy "it came out of a fax machine / software."
        3y ago
  - tim333 3y ago
    We have this stuff https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5911218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5911218
Angostura 3y ago
gov.uk is largely in-house.
carlosjobim 3y ago
What frightens me is comparing the snail-like rate of progress in the post-modern era with the rapid progress during the 20th century, regardless of economic and governmental system. It's like the a hand brake was simply engaged. I get it that people in power want to stall things so that they can skim money for their own purposes, but doesn't anybody else get just bored by the lack of progress?
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > but doesn't anybody else get just bored by the lack of progress? Be the change that you want to happen. Where possible implement it in software with your friends and publish it on the internet. Thus: I am not bored by the lack of progress, instead I am rather overworked by implementing parts of this in my free time after work.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    Of course! My comment was not about software since I'm no programmer, but about progress in the general sense. Why don't the people who are involved and take decisions within large civic projects get bored with the slow rate of progress. Like after they've stolen maybe a few millions for themselves and their friends, why not get on with it and actually start working? Is it necessary to stall progress for years and decades just for the joy of stealing? At least when it comes to IT, the rulers have very few means available for them to stall progress in general, so it becomes very obvious when they're doing it within the places they can control.
    - rocketbop 3y ago
      There’s no real desire within the German civil service to make anything more efficient, partially because it would inevitably result in redundancies, partially because of a general malaise and sense of apathy.
      - carlosjobim 3y ago
        Yes, but where does that malaise and apathy come from? I've certainly seen my share of it, dealing with government and large corporations, but not exclusively there.
josephg 3y ago
Australia also has the Digital Transformation Agency[1] to do things in house like the UK does it. I’m not sure how many government IT projects use them though. Some departments also seem to have their own (competent) in house software teams, like the ABS, the DSD (Aussie NSA) and the ATO (aus tax office). And thank god for that, because there’s also an ungodly number of consultants milking the Australian taxpayers for all we’re worth. [1] https://www.dta.gov.au/ https://www.dta.gov.au/

moomin 3y ago

Well, the UK does both. It has both incredible barriers to entry that exclude anyone other than consulting firms whose central skills is dealing with them from participation, and it also has VIP lanes for routing work to your mates.

ido 3y ago
So why are online gov services still so much better in the uk then in Germany?
- jetbooster 3y ago
  The only cynical solution I can think of is someone is getting obscenely rich by keeping Government Digital running effectively
- michaelt 3y ago
  In terms of motivation, online services do save the government money on administration costs like manual data entry, costs of returning forms that have been filled out wrong, etc. And every government likes efficiency savings much more than increasing taxes or reducing government services. In terms of implementation, the government employs a small number of competent people directly - the "Government Digital Service" - who accomplish some projects. Other IT projects are done by organisations like Accenture, CSC, Atos Origin, Fujitsu and BT. They are generally paid more if the project is late or buggy, with predictable results. But they'll often produce something eventually, if enough money is thrown at them. The "VIP lanes for routing work to your mates" are more for things like buying overpriced PPE during the pandemic.
- BucketsMcG 3y ago
  1) Most of uk.gov is actually designed and built in-house. 2) Germany, as a nation, got to about 1991 and collectively decided "This is nice, let's keep it like this". Even the most technologically progressive regions of Germany still think it's 1997. Elsewhere, it's like the wall never came down.
  - tormeh 3y ago
    Honestly, this just reflects the age of the population. Change is more painful when you're old, so stasis becomes more attractive. Usually Germans like the general idea of improvement, but they hate change.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      Ah, so that's why Germany and Japan have such an easy trading relationship.
      - tormeh 3y ago
        Yes, finally someone else with whom to fax.
        alex_suzuki 3y ago
        Anyone here who has written a fax gateway (receive TIFF of fax, do OCR, save somewhere and convert to PDF)? raises hand (fax is alive and well in Switzerland)
        ethbr1 3y ago
        This boggles the mind on the cultural-legal implications in fax-centric countries of doing: Fax to TIFF to OCR to PDF to internet transfer to TIFF to fax But anyone still requiring fax would probably just be happy "it came out of a fax machine / software."
        3y ago
- tim333 3y ago
  We have this stuff https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5911218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5911218

Angostura 3y ago

gov.uk is largely in-house.

carlosjobim 3y ago

What frightens me is comparing the snail-like rate of progress in the post-modern era with the rapid progress during the 20th century, regardless of economic and governmental system. It's like the a hand brake was simply engaged. I get it that people in power want to stall things so that they can skim money for their own purposes, but doesn't anybody else get just bored by the lack of progress?

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> but doesn't anybody else get just bored by the lack of progress? Be the change that you want to happen. Where possible implement it in software with your friends and publish it on the internet. Thus: I am not bored by the lack of progress, instead I am rather overworked by implementing parts of this in my free time after work.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Of course! My comment was not about software since I'm no programmer, but about progress in the general sense. Why don't the people who are involved and take decisions within large civic projects get bored with the slow rate of progress. Like after they've stolen maybe a few millions for themselves and their friends, why not get on with it and actually start working? Is it necessary to stall progress for years and decades just for the joy of stealing? At least when it comes to IT, the rulers have very few means available for them to stall progress in general, so it becomes very obvious when they're doing it within the places they can control.
  - rocketbop 3y ago
    There’s no real desire within the German civil service to make anything more efficient, partially because it would inevitably result in redundancies, partially because of a general malaise and sense of apathy.
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      Yes, but where does that malaise and apathy come from? I've certainly seen my share of it, dealing with government and large corporations, but not exclusively there.

josephg 3y ago

Australia also has the Digital Transformation Agency[1] to do things in house like the UK does it. I’m not sure how many government IT projects use them though. Some departments also seem to have their own (competent) in house software teams, like the ABS, the DSD (Aussie NSA) and the ATO (aus tax office). And thank god for that, because there’s also an ungodly number of consultants milking the Australian taxpayers for all we’re worth. [1] https://www.dta.gov.au/ https://www.dta.gov.au/