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For the political hackers: note that these victories are made possible by Germany's proportional representation system, which guarantees seats in parliaments to

For the political hackers: note that these victories are made possible by Germany's proportional representation system, which guarantees seats in parliaments to any party which gets more than 5% of the popular vote across the state/city/whatever. Thus parties with broad but shallow support do get represented in government. The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post) expressly prohibit such broad-but-shallow movements from ever being represented in government. If the Pirate Party in a U.S. state got the same percent of the vote, they would end up with precisely zero seats in the legislature. Even if they got double that percent of the vote, they would end up with precisely zero seats in the legislature. Triple? Still zero. The U.S. electoral system is an extremely conservative one, which prevents new political movements from ever being heard in government. There are better ones, such as Germany's.

arethuza 15y ago
The Scottish Parliament actually has an element of PR, so we do get some minority parties with seats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#2011_result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#2011_result It wouldn't surprise me if we have Pirate Party MSPs in a few years. [NB Scotland is still very much a part of the UK, at least for a couple of years or so!].
- jellicle 15y ago
  Ah, I didn't know Scotland had MMP. Good for you. I was thinking of the U.S., Canada, and UK main parliament.
- cabalamat 15y ago
  > It wouldn't surprise me if we have Pirate Party MSPs in a few years The Scottish parliament is one of the legislatures we're targetting -- it is good for us brecause it has a combination of (a) low threshold to get elected, and (b) low amount of money necessary to run an effective campaign.
hef19898 15y ago
Which electoral system is better is another discussion. Both have their flaws, but a pretty good discription of how elections work in Germany.
- davidw 15y ago
  One serious flaw of the proportional system, like Italy and Israel both have, is that a small party can be the deciding vote, and have a much larger weight than it merits. For instance: center-left party gets 48% of the vote, communists (they still exist here) get 4% of the vote. To form a majority, the large party must strike a deal with the small party, which can dictate conditions... This happens regularly in Italian politics, and I believe in Israel as well. Another flaw is that, in Italy at least, since it is not the voters of a given district who decide on one of several candidates, it is the political party who decides who actually gets to be on the list of people sent to parliament. This gives a lot of power to the political party itself, and whoever controls it.
  - jeltz 15y ago
    This also happens in the Britsh system with regional parties. For example the Bloc Quebecois have often had way larger political power than their voter base. Edit: Nothing against the Bloc (I am from Sweden), they are just an example.
    - mjwalshe 15y ago
      And Poor John Major was held to ransom by the hardline Unionist parties in the UK a few years ago. Aurgaubly the same happens in the US as the party system is very weak and there is no comback from rebelling against the party line.
  - vidarh 15y ago
    > For instance: center-left party gets 48% of the vote, communists (they still exist here) get 4% of the vote. To form a majority, the large party must strike a deal with the small party, which can dictate conditions... Or they simply look for someone on the other side. E.g. in Germany, SPD (social democrats) routinely ignore Left (socialists and communists) and instead deals with the conservative CDU. It's not like they have only one alternative, nor like they need a majority to form a government in most countries with PR. I don't see this as a downside. If you only get 48%, you don't even have a mandate from a majority of voters. It is only fair that you will need to negotiate with other parties to adjust how you govern to the benefit of a larger part of the population. For that matter, this shouldn't just change at 50% either - having parties representing 50% + 1 dictate policy still leaves half the population subject to the whims of a narrow majority. > Another flaw is that, in Italy at least, since it is not the voters of a given district who decide on one of several candidates, it is the political party who decides who actually gets to be on the list of people sent to parliament. This gives a lot of power to the political party itself, and whoever controls it. Why is this a flaw? If voters are not happy with the candidates that are nominated, they can a) join the party and vote for other candidates during nomination, or b) vote for a different party (or form one...). With proportional representation the barrier to starting a new party with a chance of taking a seat is much lowered, and it is fairly common in European politics for candidates that does not get the support of their party to get a list together as an independent and win a seat. Sometimes that even ends up forming the basis of a new party.
twelvechairs 15y ago
> The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post) Not sure 'UK-derived nations' is a very accurate description. New Zealand for one, has a mixed-member proportional system similar to Germany. Australia has preferential voting (not first past the post) and an upper house with proportional representation. I'm sure other commonwealth states must have diversity in voting systems also, despite being otherwise 'UK-derived'.
- rmc 15y ago
  Ireland also has a PR-STV system, aswell as multi member constituancies.
mhellmic 15y ago
Just to be clear, the pirate party (with 7.4%) is in the parliament, not in the government. The government will most likely consist of a coalition of the parties CDU and SPD, so that the Pirates will be in the opposition. I am sure you meant that, but it wasn't clear to me.
cabalamat 15y ago
> The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post) expressly prohibit such broad-but-shallow movements from ever being represented in government. This is true for the Westminster parliament. It is not true for other elected bodies in the UK, which use the following electoral systems, and with the approximate share of the vote you need to get elected: London Assembly, MMP (as Germany), 5% Scottish Parliament, MMP, c. 6% Welsh Assembly, MMP, c. 8% Northern Ireland assembly, 6 member STV, c. 10% NI local government, 6 member STV, c. 10% Scottish local government, 3-4 member STV, c. 13% European parliament, 1 STV constituency and 11 closed lists, varies between c. 8% and 17% Incidentally, I am a Pirate Party UK candidate standing in Edinburgh this May -- http://edinburgh.pirateparty.org.uk/ http://edinburgh.pirateparty.org.uk/

arethuza 15y ago

The Scottish Parliament actually has an element of PR, so we do get some minority parties with seats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#2011_result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#2011_result It wouldn't surprise me if we have Pirate Party MSPs in a few years. [NB Scotland is still very much a part of the UK, at least for a couple of years or so!].

jellicle 15y ago
Ah, I didn't know Scotland had MMP. Good for you. I was thinking of the U.S., Canada, and UK main parliament.
cabalamat 15y ago
> It wouldn't surprise me if we have Pirate Party MSPs in a few years The Scottish parliament is one of the legislatures we're targetting -- it is good for us brecause it has a combination of (a) low threshold to get elected, and (b) low amount of money necessary to run an effective campaign.

hef19898 15y ago

Which electoral system is better is another discussion. Both have their flaws, but a pretty good discription of how elections work in Germany.

davidw 15y ago
One serious flaw of the proportional system, like Italy and Israel both have, is that a small party can be the deciding vote, and have a much larger weight than it merits. For instance: center-left party gets 48% of the vote, communists (they still exist here) get 4% of the vote. To form a majority, the large party must strike a deal with the small party, which can dictate conditions... This happens regularly in Italian politics, and I believe in Israel as well. Another flaw is that, in Italy at least, since it is not the voters of a given district who decide on one of several candidates, it is the political party who decides who actually gets to be on the list of people sent to parliament. This gives a lot of power to the political party itself, and whoever controls it.
- jeltz 15y ago
  This also happens in the Britsh system with regional parties. For example the Bloc Quebecois have often had way larger political power than their voter base. Edit: Nothing against the Bloc (I am from Sweden), they are just an example.
  - mjwalshe 15y ago
    And Poor John Major was held to ransom by the hardline Unionist parties in the UK a few years ago. Aurgaubly the same happens in the US as the party system is very weak and there is no comback from rebelling against the party line.
- vidarh 15y ago
  > For instance: center-left party gets 48% of the vote, communists (they still exist here) get 4% of the vote. To form a majority, the large party must strike a deal with the small party, which can dictate conditions... Or they simply look for someone on the other side. E.g. in Germany, SPD (social democrats) routinely ignore Left (socialists and communists) and instead deals with the conservative CDU. It's not like they have only one alternative, nor like they need a majority to form a government in most countries with PR. I don't see this as a downside. If you only get 48%, you don't even have a mandate from a majority of voters. It is only fair that you will need to negotiate with other parties to adjust how you govern to the benefit of a larger part of the population. For that matter, this shouldn't just change at 50% either - having parties representing 50% + 1 dictate policy still leaves half the population subject to the whims of a narrow majority. > Another flaw is that, in Italy at least, since it is not the voters of a given district who decide on one of several candidates, it is the political party who decides who actually gets to be on the list of people sent to parliament. This gives a lot of power to the political party itself, and whoever controls it. Why is this a flaw? If voters are not happy with the candidates that are nominated, they can a) join the party and vote for other candidates during nomination, or b) vote for a different party (or form one...). With proportional representation the barrier to starting a new party with a chance of taking a seat is much lowered, and it is fairly common in European politics for candidates that does not get the support of their party to get a list together as an independent and win a seat. Sometimes that even ends up forming the basis of a new party.

twelvechairs 15y ago

> The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post) Not sure 'UK-derived nations' is a very accurate description. New Zealand for one, has a mixed-member proportional system similar to Germany. Australia has preferential voting (not first past the post) and an upper house with proportional representation. I'm sure other commonwealth states must have diversity in voting systems also, despite being otherwise 'UK-derived'.

rmc 15y ago
Ireland also has a PR-STV system, aswell as multi member constituancies.

mhellmic 15y ago

Just to be clear, the pirate party (with 7.4%) is in the parliament, not in the government. The government will most likely consist of a coalition of the parties CDU and SPD, so that the Pirates will be in the opposition. I am sure you meant that, but it wasn't clear to me.

cabalamat 15y ago

> The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post) expressly prohibit such broad-but-shallow movements from ever being represented in government. This is true for the Westminster parliament. It is not true for other elected bodies in the UK, which use the following electoral systems, and with the approximate share of the vote you need to get elected: London Assembly, MMP (as Germany), 5% Scottish Parliament, MMP, c. 6% Welsh Assembly, MMP, c. 8% Northern Ireland assembly, 6 member STV, c. 10% NI local government, 6 member STV, c. 10% Scottish local government, 3-4 member STV, c. 13% European parliament, 1 STV constituency and 11 closed lists, varies between c. 8% and 17% Incidentally, I am a Pirate Party UK candidate standing in Edinburgh this May -- http://edinburgh.pirateparty.org.uk/ http://edinburgh.pirateparty.org.uk/