3 ms·

It's not bizarre at all. Early hits are step 0.1 in bringing a drug to market. You patent a large space that gives you room to optimize the structure in terms

by refurb 3y ago

It's not bizarre at all. Early hits are step 0.1 in bringing a drug to market. You patent a large space that gives you room to optimize the structure in terms of safety, efficacy, Pk, metabolites, etc. Very rarely would you ever get 1 hit in a huge combinatorial screen. You'd likely get a few dozen. But you have no idea which ones would the best. The company will usually nominate 5 or 6 hits (across the scaffold space) for further screening, then slowly whittle it down from there. By the time it hits humans, it's like 1 with 1 or 2 backups. So you patent them all. If you could only patent one, one of two things would happen: 1) the company would just file thousands of individual patents to accomplish the same thing or 2) not both developing the drug further unless they were 100% certain it was the right one (which I've never seen).

whymauri 3y ago
Sure, you can argue that coverage for lead optimization is an unintentional feature, not a bug of Markush. But you have to admit that the current system is leveraged in bad faith i.e. for hedging against generics, staggering patents to maximize exclusivity period, exceptional vagueness and overreach in the structure definitions. Technology and legal practices have far outpaced the USPTO. We have accidentally incentivized sheer volume and intentionally poor record-keeping as a moat. This is a fundamental _inefficiency_, because it de-emphasizes property based engineering and pushes ADMET down the road. Why do so many candidates fail for ADMET reasons a few years down the line? Because people aren't thinking about the risks sooner! Why not? Because surely the patent will cover everything. Add to everything how siloed big pharma is and it becomes impossible to coordinate across the pipeline. IANAL, but certainly there must be some middle ground here -- the last time the USPTO took a stab at redefining this mess was 2007, but they failed. https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/web/offices/com/sol/notices/72fr44992.pdf https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/web/offices/com/so... They more or less proposed what you said: file a claim for each different invention, putting the onus of proof on the filer. In the amendment, Markush is appropriate if you have evidence backing that the chemical space has a true shared utility via structure i.e. test it or forget it OR the chemical space is 'obvious'. When you read the original intent of the Markush decision i.e. "members of [a] Markush group are alternatively usable for the purposes of the invention," it becomes clear that we have strayed waaay from this definition. A Markush can easily contain structures that are impossible to synthesize at all!
- refurb 3y ago
  I mean, if the argument is PTO should be better resources so that patents can undergo more rigorous evaluation, you won't get an argument from me. You're not supposed to patent anything you haven't actually made, however, there is no validation of that and as a result patent applicants are incentivized to patent as broad a space as possible. However, if we did move to a "single molecule, single patent" approach, the workload on the PTO would skyrocket. For pharmaceutical companies the cost of a patent and its preparation is infinitesimal compared to the cost of developing a drug - pharma companies wouldn't bat an eye at submitting 1000's of patents for each discovery program. But, as I stated above, I don't disagree the process could be made better.
  - cycomanic 3y ago
    There is an easy solution, you already can't patent cooking recipes. So why allow chemical recipes? To those that say that would stifle innovation, well historic evidence is inconclusive at best, e.g. the development of the pharmaceutical industries in the US, Germany and Switzerland saw thr biggest industry develop in Switzerland who did not have any patent protection followed by Germany, where only processes not chemicals could be patented. The US pharmaceutical industry only become much bigger after they benefited from the harmonisation of patent systems to follow the strong protection in the US.
    - AlbertCory 3y ago
      The Pharma lobby is one of the most powerful in DC. Zero chance of that ever happening. So let's remove software from the list of patentable subject matter. Then Pharma won't care about us anymore. One thing at a time.
    - refurb 3y ago
      “Recipes” aren’t the key patents in pharma, it’s new molecules - new composition of matter. Occasionally processes are patented but competitors could still make the molecule other ways. And considering the pharma industry never really took off until the mid-century I’m not sure your claim of “saw the biggest industry develop” before the parents we have today holds any weight.
ivan_gammel 3y ago
> not both[er] developing the drug further unless they were 100% certain it was the right one (which I've never seen) I don’t really understand this argument. Patent law is just another moat. If it doesn’t exist for all competitors, it’s just different baseline for calculations. The market is still big and attractive, so all those who give up will open space for those who figured out how to survive without patents. Likely this will lead to a bigger concentration of capital, because in the absence of patent protections you may need to spend more on security. But it is happening anyway for other reasons, so we have to deal with monopolies anyway.
- refurb 3y ago
  Please explain how, without patents, a company would choose to invest hundreds of millions of dollars to discovery a new molecule and get it approved, when another company could start selling it as well without any of the investment at all? Financially it makes zero sense. And if the logic is - well the government can fund the research (which is a huge stretch since Pharma R&D is several multiple of gov't funding today), ok, but then you end up paying for the medicine through taxes instead.
  - ivan_gammel 3y ago
    >Please explain how, without patents, a company would choose to invest hundreds of millions of dollars to discovery a new molecule and get it approved, when another company could start selling it as well without any of the investment at all? >Financially it makes zero sense. Innovations in funding, protection of secrets etc do happen time to time, so even if I cannot give you satisfying answer now, it does not mean such answer does not exist. It took thousands of years to invent modern corporation and stock exchange. Cryptocurrencies are recent invention. Imagine some sort of pooled research, where all competitors/partners agree to compete only after the discovery, i.e. in production efficiency and costs, marketing etc, with some . Imagine some clever chemical engineering, where a pill is such a mixture of acting substance and harmless components that reverse engineering is too hard to complete without comparable budget. Maybe it will be something completely different that we will find obvious only after it is discovered.

by refurb 3y ago

whymauri 3y ago

Sure, you can argue that coverage for lead optimization is an unintentional feature, not a bug of Markush. But you have to admit that the current system is leveraged in bad faith i.e. for hedging against generics, staggering patents to maximize exclusivity period, exceptional vagueness and overreach in the structure definitions. Technology and legal practices have far outpaced the USPTO. We have accidentally incentivized sheer volume and intentionally poor record-keeping as a moat. This is a fundamental _inefficiency_, because it de-emphasizes property based engineering and pushes ADMET down the road. Why do so many candidates fail for ADMET reasons a few years down the line? Because people aren't thinking about the risks sooner! Why not? Because surely the patent will cover everything. Add to everything how siloed big pharma is and it becomes impossible to coordinate across the pipeline. IANAL, but certainly there must be some middle ground here -- the last time the USPTO took a stab at redefining this mess was 2007, but they failed. https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/web/offices/com/sol/notices/72fr44992.pdf https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/web/offices/com/so... They more or less proposed what you said: file a claim for each different invention, putting the onus of proof on the filer. In the amendment, Markush is appropriate if you have evidence backing that the chemical space has a true shared utility via structure i.e. test it or forget it OR the chemical space is 'obvious'. When you read the original intent of the Markush decision i.e. "members of [a] Markush group are alternatively usable for the purposes of the invention," it becomes clear that we have strayed waaay from this definition. A Markush can easily contain structures that are impossible to synthesize at all!

refurb 3y ago
I mean, if the argument is PTO should be better resources so that patents can undergo more rigorous evaluation, you won't get an argument from me. You're not supposed to patent anything you haven't actually made, however, there is no validation of that and as a result patent applicants are incentivized to patent as broad a space as possible. However, if we did move to a "single molecule, single patent" approach, the workload on the PTO would skyrocket. For pharmaceutical companies the cost of a patent and its preparation is infinitesimal compared to the cost of developing a drug - pharma companies wouldn't bat an eye at submitting 1000's of patents for each discovery program. But, as I stated above, I don't disagree the process could be made better.
- cycomanic 3y ago
  There is an easy solution, you already can't patent cooking recipes. So why allow chemical recipes? To those that say that would stifle innovation, well historic evidence is inconclusive at best, e.g. the development of the pharmaceutical industries in the US, Germany and Switzerland saw thr biggest industry develop in Switzerland who did not have any patent protection followed by Germany, where only processes not chemicals could be patented. The US pharmaceutical industry only become much bigger after they benefited from the harmonisation of patent systems to follow the strong protection in the US.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    The Pharma lobby is one of the most powerful in DC. Zero chance of that ever happening. So let's remove software from the list of patentable subject matter. Then Pharma won't care about us anymore. One thing at a time.
  - refurb 3y ago
    “Recipes” aren’t the key patents in pharma, it’s new molecules - new composition of matter. Occasionally processes are patented but competitors could still make the molecule other ways. And considering the pharma industry never really took off until the mid-century I’m not sure your claim of “saw the biggest industry develop” before the parents we have today holds any weight.

ivan_gammel 3y ago

> not both[er] developing the drug further unless they were 100% certain it was the right one (which I've never seen) I don’t really understand this argument. Patent law is just another moat. If it doesn’t exist for all competitors, it’s just different baseline for calculations. The market is still big and attractive, so all those who give up will open space for those who figured out how to survive without patents. Likely this will lead to a bigger concentration of capital, because in the absence of patent protections you may need to spend more on security. But it is happening anyway for other reasons, so we have to deal with monopolies anyway.

refurb 3y ago
Please explain how, without patents, a company would choose to invest hundreds of millions of dollars to discovery a new molecule and get it approved, when another company could start selling it as well without any of the investment at all? Financially it makes zero sense. And if the logic is - well the government can fund the research (which is a huge stretch since Pharma R&D is several multiple of gov't funding today), ok, but then you end up paying for the medicine through taxes instead.
- ivan_gammel 3y ago
  >Please explain how, without patents, a company would choose to invest hundreds of millions of dollars to discovery a new molecule and get it approved, when another company could start selling it as well without any of the investment at all? >Financially it makes zero sense. Innovations in funding, protection of secrets etc do happen time to time, so even if I cannot give you satisfying answer now, it does not mean such answer does not exist. It took thousands of years to invent modern corporation and stock exchange. Cryptocurrencies are recent invention. Imagine some sort of pooled research, where all competitors/partners agree to compete only after the discovery, i.e. in production efficiency and costs, marketing etc, with some . Imagine some clever chemical engineering, where a pill is such a mixture of acting substance and harmless components that reverse engineering is too hard to complete without comparable budget. Maybe it will be something completely different that we will find obvious only after it is discovered.