5 ms·
The High Cost of Free Parking (2005)
- tessierashpool 3y agoI love my car, but building cities around cars was an epic mistake, and making those cars electric will not change that.
- davidw 3y agoOne way I try to explain it: https://bendyimby.com/2022/05/11/cities-are-for-people/ https://bendyimby.com/2022/05/11/cities-are-for-people/ - put people first, then the other things. Happily, we eliminated parking minimums here in Bend, Oregon and civilization has not collapsed. Leaving things to the market is actually a pretty incrementalist reform. Plenty of developers continue to provide parking because they figure their customers want it. But not all of them... And that means we can gradually adapt to different needs over time.
- justin101 3y ago[flagged]
- htfu 3y agoI mean yes, it's unironically better if something that ruins things for everyone is restricted to be a luxury good, because less of a bad thing (congestion, pollution, space, death etc) is a good thing even if some lucky fuckers (not enough to meaningfully impact the larger effect) manage to skirt the spirit of the law. Private cars will eventually be banned from cities, though, I'm sure of that. But it will take a long time. Congestion pricing and such are baby steps and is just you finally paying for your previously free externalities, and yes the market (in this case society/dominant politics) gets to set the price. Tough luck, welcome to proper capitalism.
- JambalayaJim 3y agoIf rich people want to fund public transit infrastructure then let them.
- userbinator 3y ago[flagged]
- peepeepoopoo38 3y agoCentral planning: ideas so good they're mandatory.
- davidw 3y agoCentral planning is the government dictating exactly how many parking spots are mandatory for different kinds of uses.
- peepeepoopoo38 3y agoBusinesses that want to provide parking are also free to do so.
- Gigachad 3y agoBut businesses which do not want to are not free to abstain.
- peepeepoopoo38 3y ago[flagged]
- jjoonathan 3y agoThey still are. You are complaining about deregulation.
- supertrope 3y agoLike government built highways, and government mandated parking minimums around every single building.
- dfiohnio 3y ago[dead]
- nomilk 3y agoThere's a great Econtalk episode with the Author: https://www.econtalk.org/donald-shoup-on-the-economics-of-parking/ https://www.econtalk.org/donald-shoup-on-the-economics-of-pa...
- thelastgallon 3y agoThese maps provide graphic evidence of how parking lots “eat” U.S. cities: https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/parking-lots-eat-american-cities/ https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/parking-lots-eat-american-... America has paid a steep price for parking:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36197206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36197206 The force that shapes everything around us: Parking: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36758355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36758355 Parking Laws Are Strangling America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8 Austin Preparing To End Parking Mandates Citywide in 2023: https://austin.towers.net/austin-preparing-to-end-parking-mandates-citywide-in-2023/ https://austin.towers.net/austin-preparing-to-end-parking-ma...
- readthenotes1 3y agoHow much of that is free though? Especially in the urban areas, parking is very expensive and I assume the city (and people) benefit.
- Gigachad 3y agoCities usually spend a lot more to provide that parking than they make back.
- coffeedan 3y agoMost cities have free street parking, at least overnight.
- JambalayaJim 3y agoParking in urban areas is often a net negative; I.e the motorist doesn’t contribute as much to the local economy as the negative externality they accrue.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Gigachad 3y agoImo, street side parking in cities should just be scrapped. It makes no sense for the public to pay so much money to allow people to park particular kinds of private property for free. Pushing all parking on to businesses own lots or in dedicated parking facilities would let the market adequately price parking rather than externalising the cost.
- jj999 3y agoIn my building, there are 40 units... and 6 parking places in the basement. Most of the city is this way. Street side parking is the only way to go. TBH I prefer trees and grass over parking lots. I would not change it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- elyobo 3y ago> I prefer trees and grass over parking lots I don't see a meaningful distinction between a consolidated parking lot and one that's distributed along the side of the road when it comes to tree and grass cover. For dense urban situations car parking buildings allow more than either surface lots or surface street parking.
- jj999 3y agoNearly half of parking lots' space a dedicated to move in and out. That space isn't needed with street parking because the street itself accomplish this function. Parking lots are mostly used only half of the day and empty otherwise, because typically people drive their car around in a few different parking lots. Streets are useful all day long. I'm unconvinced removing street parking would allow for smaller streets because that space is also used for bus stops and snow management in winter. Chance are street parking don't take place in itself but merely maximize usage of space that would be used up by the streets anyway. I don't think we need private parking buildings to park our private cars when not in use, ie, most of the time. We need fewer, always in use, public cars to drive on our already public roads.
- alex_young 3y agoThe city center in many European cities does not have street parking of any sort, private cars are largely or entirely banned, and they are some of the most livable, walkable, and vibrant urban areas.
- kijin 3y agoThat's because most of those cities were built up before cars existed, and even horse-drawn carriages were a luxury for the few. Many American cities on the other hand have grown up with the car, with wide streets dividing neighborhoods, and essential facilities scattered far away from one another. Reducing car usage in a typical American city (not downtown Manhattan) is not just a matter of banning cars or replacing them with public transportation. The city itself needs to be redesigned in a more compact way. Property values will skyrocket in the CBD, and crash everywhere else.
- felixfbecker 3y agoThis is untrue. Most American cities were built before the car and even had wide streetcar networks. Buildings and (often poor and black) neighborhoods were torn down to make way for urban highways. Car manufacturers literally bought up streetcar companies just to rip out tracks and sell more cars. Europe picked up on this trend too a little delayed in many places, but luckily not to the same degree and realized the bad direction more quickly.
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoI’ve spent time looking at a map of my city, and it’s pretty easy to see the transition. The older streetcar suburbs have streets on a grid, and alleys down the middle of every block. The post WW2 areas are all widely separated and full of cul-de-sacs, and the alleys are gone. Walking anywhere in the older areas is easy, though a lot of the amenities like mom and pop stores are now gone. Walking anywhere in the newer areas is pretty much impossible. The streets don’t connect and there is nowhere to walk to.
- ianburrell 3y ago
- m463 3y agoSometimes when I hear discussions like this, I can't help but think back to several places I've lived or stayed where using a car was not possible. It sucked. Yes, living in the exact center of a bustling city should be efficient - you should be able to walk everywhere for all your needs and it should be efficient. But the reality was that you couldn't and it wasn't. It took a tremendous toll on your time and the effort to live life was higher. I think the way people lived a decent life walking and taking public transportation was to live a smaller life, and put up with the inefficiency of slower transportation and more limited choices of jobs to have, places to shop and things to do. Am I wrong? Do I not understand? Has anyone moved from a semi-dense area where just about anything was within a 10 minute drive, to a situation where they didn't use a car and still lived a decent efficient life?
- polygamous_bat 3y ago> Sometimes when I hear discussions like this, I can't help but think back to several places I've lived or stayed where using a car was not possible. Example? Us in New York are going by fine taking the train or biking, and if we really need a car we call a cab or an Uber, and that we have to pay extra makes us really think if we need that car or is that just us being lazy. I won't ever understand the joy of punting that bill of your joyrides to the next generation, I guess.
- CharlesW 3y agoSimilarly, being car-less in Chicago is the way to go. Even pre-Uber it was far better — it can take an hour to find a parking space in certain neighborhoods at certain times.
- HDThoreaun 3y agoThe train blows since the pandemic. Blue line is coming like once every 10 minutes during rush hour so you can't count on ever actually getting on due to crowding.
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
- thelastgallon 3y agoCars are the dominant life form of Earth. Although Ford had taken great care to blend into Earth society, he had "skimped a bit on his preparatory research," and thought that the name "Ford Prefect" would be "nicely inconspicuous." The Ford Prefect was a popular British car manufactured from 1938 to 1961, and Adams later clarified in an interview that Ford "had simply mistaken the dominant life form" of Earth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Prefect_(character) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Prefect_(character)
- 0xcde4c3db 3y agoI don't remember the details and searches aren't turning up anything, but I remember somebody managed to camp on public streets without being bothered for a surprisingly long time by building a tent that looked like a car with a cover on it. I think this was a bit of performance art rather than being done out of necessity, the point being that people just think of that space as being for cars and don't really question it.
- swader999 3y agoNow that everyone is doing it it's not as easy. But ten years ago I lived out of a white utility van and lived rural with my family in the weekend. Parked commercial or industrial areas of the city, nobody ever bothered me.
- xnx 3y agoAll these parking spots are going to be an amazing resource to repurpose (housing, parks, etc.) as automated-deliveries and self-driving cars become widespread.
- swader999 3y agoBut if there was no parking wouldn't the value of said cities plummet? Do you want to open your place of business where no one can park for a mile?
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoIt turns out that it doesn’t work that way if people can live closer together. Walking traffic gets you more sales than driving traffic.
- FooBarBizBazz 3y agoIn fact, car-hostility drives up the value of real estate, because it's harder to live outside and drive in. If you want to enjoy the lifestyle, you need to pay for a place in it.