11 ms·

German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

158 points by NonEUCitizen 15y ago

sek 15y ago
Anti-copyright group ... The site is called Hollywoodreporter, no surprise. If anybody ist interested: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,823738,00.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,823738,00... The core discourse is about civil liberties and resentment with the old parties.
- mhd 15y ago
  Speaking of reporting, I wonder how long it'll take until the "Pirates board another x" phrase gets retired…
ghost91 15y ago
I'm from germany, but I'm not sure if I would elect them. In last months there were so many chances for them, but they missed every one. For example they organised demonstrations against ACTA, but I never heard anything directly from the pirate party.
- LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
  There are several press releases about ACTA on piratenpartei.de: http://www.piratenpartei.de/category/pm/ http://www.piratenpartei.de/category/pm/
  - phreeza 15y ago
    The point is not to just write a press release, it is to get your platform noticed. They missed this opportunity with ACTA and also when our president resigned. Fefe ranted about this in several posts on his blog. My hunch is they simply lack the political shrewdness required in these matters at the moment, but that also makes them more appealing to me, they are not just playing the same old game (yet). PS: nice nickname :D
    - LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
      I do not expect a party to rant like Fefe does. You can't neglect the fact that the position of the pirate party about ACTA is crystal clear: They don't want it to become reality. They wrote press releases, they organized demonstrations and there are ongoing discussions party-wide. If you think ACTA is a bad idea I see no reason not to vote for the pirate party - they have done more for the anti-ACTA-movement than any other party. It could have been more but this does not make them unelectable... Thank you - I like your nickname as well. .)
    - jellicle 15y ago
      What you will find if you actually try to become an activist on these issues is that "getting your platform noticed" is very much non-trivial. There is a wide and deep gulf between "having a position on an issue" and "having a mainstream newspaper write that you have a position on an issue". A particular advocacy group may be spending a ton of effort and money to get noticed about an issue, and still have a complete press blackout on the issue, and it is not necessarily their fault. In the end newspapers write about what their owners want them to write about, not what would be best for society.
- cabalamat 15y ago
  > In last months there were so many chances for them, but they missed every one. If they are so incompetent, but still get 7.4% of the vote, then how will will they do once they get their act together?
hef19898 15y ago
Anti-copyright group... That and the "everything for free party" are the most common discriptions media and the established parties are trying to pose on the Pirates right now. That and the misinterpretation that an opposition to an attemt to simply block child pornographic sites when you try to access them from germany equals a support of said sites. They are anew party with some, IMHO interessting fresh approaches. And if we have a party in the parliaments of one of the biggest economies in Europe oppossing the most wierd initiatives from the content industry, well that can only be great!
- mhd 15y ago
  What could probably work out well for them is the opposite of a "fresh approach". In an interview today, one of the new members of parliament said that he sees the PP as representing classical liberalism, as opposed to the FDP's neo-liberalism. That would be something to unite behind, beyond straight-forward internet themes. But we'll have to see whether it's something the whole party can agree on. In its ideal form, that's something good about the German electoral system. Due to the fact that traditionally most parts need a coalition to form a government, you can have some kind of "mixin" system, i.e. vote for a party because it adds something valuable to the whole effort, not because you could see them govern totally on their own. Especially if the party isn't tied to one particular big sibling, which more and more seems to be the case now.
  - hef19898 15y ago
    That's what I meant. Apparently, the old is the new fresh, or something like that. :-) What I expect from them is representation of civil rights and personal freedom in society. And you don't even have to be part of the government to do that in Germany. Just one question, you are from Germany, aren't you?
    - mhd 15y ago
      Yup (well, Bavaria, which technically does count). But while I do hope that the Pirates emerge as a new center for social liberalism, which was pretty much dismantled in the early '80s when the FDP turned towards a new wind, I'm a bit worried whether that's achievable. I would love to be wrong, but I can't see a coherent picture emerging from that much grassroots democracy.
icebraining 15y ago
Copyright discussions played little role in the Pirate's successful campaign, however. The party instead focused on issues of social and political reform. Has anyone with real political influence (so, not them for now ;) addresses this issue? I suppose this was relevant before, but with more targeted parties like the Pirates, I think the faults in our election system seem more pronounced. The reality is that a party like this is doomed to either lose votes for not having a position on anything else besides copyright, privacy and such, or lose votes by alienating the people who disagree with them on other issues.
- sp332 15y ago
  The Green Party (can't remember if it was the German or E.U. party) added some of the Pirate Party's planks to their platform, since they didn't have an official stance on copyright before and were losing voters out of their core demographics to the Pirate Party.
- hef19898 15y ago
  Copyright et al. is just the most well-known program point they. AFAIK the movement started in scandinavia (sweden?) as response to some Pirate Bay issues I forgot about after all the SOPA, ACTA Megaupload stories. Already sorry for being to lacy to look it up right now.
  - yxhuvud 15y ago
    Actually, it was started a few months before the police raid on the Pirate Bay raid. Membership exploded at that point though.
- Tichy 15y ago
  I think their attraction has by now moved far beyond the copyright thing. People feel that politics has become completely detached from their daily lives, and the pirate party promises to change that, for example with direct democracy. For example, anybody can get elected at the Pirate Party atm. Try that in the established parties: I think you have to join in kindergarden and toil for decades before you can make it big in an established party. If you feel strongly about some issue, could you join an established party and hope to get heard? It seems unlikely.
jellicle 15y ago
For the political hackers: note that these victories are made possible by Germany's proportional representation system, which guarantees seats in parliaments to any party which gets more than 5% of the popular vote across the state/city/whatever. Thus parties with broad but shallow support do get represented in government. The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post) expressly prohibit such broad-but-shallow movements from ever being represented in government. If the Pirate Party in a U.S. state got the same percent of the vote, they would end up with precisely zero seats in the legislature. Even if they got double that percent of the vote, they would end up with precisely zero seats in the legislature. Triple? Still zero. The U.S. electoral system is an extremely conservative one, which prevents new political movements from ever being heard in government. There are better ones, such as Germany's.
- arethuza 15y ago
  The Scottish Parliament actually has an element of PR, so we do get some minority parties with seats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#2011_result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#2011_result It wouldn't surprise me if we have Pirate Party MSPs in a few years. [NB Scotland is still very much a part of the UK, at least for a couple of years or so!].
  - jellicle 15y ago
    Ah, I didn't know Scotland had MMP. Good for you. I was thinking of the U.S., Canada, and UK main parliament.
  - cabalamat 15y ago
    > It wouldn't surprise me if we have Pirate Party MSPs in a few years The Scottish parliament is one of the legislatures we're targetting -- it is good for us brecause it has a combination of (a) low threshold to get elected, and (b) low amount of money necessary to run an effective campaign.
- hef19898 15y ago
  Which electoral system is better is another discussion. Both have their flaws, but a pretty good discription of how elections work in Germany.
axx 15y ago
You should also keep in mind, that the german pirate party isn't only about copyright stuff. They're also "the only" party in germany that represents the interests of web-centric citizens. While the conservative parties try to regulate the internet in germany more an more (you know, germany has A LOT of regulations, everywhere) the pirate party is a good alternative. I'm really happy about this movement, even if they don't land a huge hit after a few years, you can see more younger people getting more interest in politics etc.
- Cass 15y ago
  In addition to the things you mentioned, I'm also quite happy about the existence of a party containing many young, inexperienced members in the government. They seem to be reinventing the wheel at least partly out of ignorance of the way things have always been done in German politics, and while that does lead to some chaos within the party, in some cases they're reinventing it for the better. Even if they don't manage to push through any meaningful changes at all by themselves, their mere presence seems to be enough to shake up the traditional parties, and show them that they need to be more open and inclusive towards the general public, and particularly younger voters.
buster 15y ago
Jesus... and all with a "top 10 pirated movies of all time" picture gallery.. what horrible site is that!? A pretty good article for the germans among us can be found here: http://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/texte/anzeigen/36648/ http://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/texte/anzeigen/36648/
- eru 15y ago
  Thanks. That's pretty good. By the way, the Neue Zurcher Zeitung often has an interesting outsider's perspective on events in Germany (e.g. http://www.nzz.ch/marktplaetze/uebersicht/kaum_gegenwind_fuer_die_deutschen_piraten_1.13030905.html http://www.nzz.ch/marktplaetze/uebersicht/kaum_gegenwind_fue...).
philippK 15y ago
I'm from Saarland (the state where the vote was last night), and i voted for the pirate party last night. They are not an anti copyright group. It's true that they want to see modifications made to overly strict copyright laws and oppose treaties like ACTA, data retention laws, web censorship laws (all of which have been proposed in germany in the last years). Their core demands are: * Improve overly strict copyright laws * Improve transparency of government (open data, foia , etc) * Improve the educational system to take advantage of the internet and other "new media" in class. * Improve citizen participation in government by having public votes on more issues They are also about the only party that has some competence when it comes to computers, the internet, etc So, as a web-centric citizen, it was easy for me to vote for them.
codesuela 15y ago
Note that by being the most net friendly party, the Pirates are the ones you should be voting for if you are part of a startup.
6ren 15y ago
Is there any particular reason this is happening first in Germany? Just chance? Is it because Germany has an electoral system that allows it? [but other nations also allow it] Or, that Germany is technically advanced, and so one of the first nations to have a sufficiently large constituent of web-centric citizens? (echoes of Martin Luther, opposing the establishment with new communications technology) [but other nations are advanced]

158 points by NonEUCitizen 15y ago

sek 15y ago

Anti-copyright group ... The site is called Hollywoodreporter, no surprise. If anybody ist interested: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,823738,00.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,823738,00... The core discourse is about civil liberties and resentment with the old parties.

mhd 15y ago
Speaking of reporting, I wonder how long it'll take until the "Pirates board another x" phrase gets retired…

ghost91 15y ago

I'm from germany, but I'm not sure if I would elect them. In last months there were so many chances for them, but they missed every one. For example they organised demonstrations against ACTA, but I never heard anything directly from the pirate party.

LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
There are several press releases about ACTA on piratenpartei.de: http://www.piratenpartei.de/category/pm/ http://www.piratenpartei.de/category/pm/
- phreeza 15y ago
  The point is not to just write a press release, it is to get your platform noticed. They missed this opportunity with ACTA and also when our president resigned. Fefe ranted about this in several posts on his blog. My hunch is they simply lack the political shrewdness required in these matters at the moment, but that also makes them more appealing to me, they are not just playing the same old game (yet). PS: nice nickname :D
  - LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
    I do not expect a party to rant like Fefe does. You can't neglect the fact that the position of the pirate party about ACTA is crystal clear: They don't want it to become reality. They wrote press releases, they organized demonstrations and there are ongoing discussions party-wide. If you think ACTA is a bad idea I see no reason not to vote for the pirate party - they have done more for the anti-ACTA-movement than any other party. It could have been more but this does not make them unelectable... Thank you - I like your nickname as well. .)
  - jellicle 15y ago
    What you will find if you actually try to become an activist on these issues is that "getting your platform noticed" is very much non-trivial. There is a wide and deep gulf between "having a position on an issue" and "having a mainstream newspaper write that you have a position on an issue". A particular advocacy group may be spending a ton of effort and money to get noticed about an issue, and still have a complete press blackout on the issue, and it is not necessarily their fault. In the end newspapers write about what their owners want them to write about, not what would be best for society.
cabalamat 15y ago
> In last months there were so many chances for them, but they missed every one. If they are so incompetent, but still get 7.4% of the vote, then how will will they do once they get their act together?

hef19898 15y ago

Anti-copyright group... That and the "everything for free party" are the most common discriptions media and the established parties are trying to pose on the Pirates right now. That and the misinterpretation that an opposition to an attemt to simply block child pornographic sites when you try to access them from germany equals a support of said sites. They are anew party with some, IMHO interessting fresh approaches. And if we have a party in the parliaments of one of the biggest economies in Europe oppossing the most wierd initiatives from the content industry, well that can only be great!

mhd 15y ago
What could probably work out well for them is the opposite of a "fresh approach". In an interview today, one of the new members of parliament said that he sees the PP as representing classical liberalism, as opposed to the FDP's neo-liberalism. That would be something to unite behind, beyond straight-forward internet themes. But we'll have to see whether it's something the whole party can agree on. In its ideal form, that's something good about the German electoral system. Due to the fact that traditionally most parts need a coalition to form a government, you can have some kind of "mixin" system, i.e. vote for a party because it adds something valuable to the whole effort, not because you could see them govern totally on their own. Especially if the party isn't tied to one particular big sibling, which more and more seems to be the case now.
- hef19898 15y ago
  That's what I meant. Apparently, the old is the new fresh, or something like that. :-) What I expect from them is representation of civil rights and personal freedom in society. And you don't even have to be part of the government to do that in Germany. Just one question, you are from Germany, aren't you?
  - mhd 15y ago
    Yup (well, Bavaria, which technically does count). But while I do hope that the Pirates emerge as a new center for social liberalism, which was pretty much dismantled in the early '80s when the FDP turned towards a new wind, I'm a bit worried whether that's achievable. I would love to be wrong, but I can't see a coherent picture emerging from that much grassroots democracy.

icebraining 15y ago

Copyright discussions played little role in the Pirate's successful campaign, however. The party instead focused on issues of social and political reform. Has anyone with real political influence (so, not them for now ;) addresses this issue? I suppose this was relevant before, but with more targeted parties like the Pirates, I think the faults in our election system seem more pronounced. The reality is that a party like this is doomed to either lose votes for not having a position on anything else besides copyright, privacy and such, or lose votes by alienating the people who disagree with them on other issues.

sp332 15y ago
The Green Party (can't remember if it was the German or E.U. party) added some of the Pirate Party's planks to their platform, since they didn't have an official stance on copyright before and were losing voters out of their core demographics to the Pirate Party.
hef19898 15y ago
Copyright et al. is just the most well-known program point they. AFAIK the movement started in scandinavia (sweden?) as response to some Pirate Bay issues I forgot about after all the SOPA, ACTA Megaupload stories. Already sorry for being to lacy to look it up right now.
- yxhuvud 15y ago
  Actually, it was started a few months before the police raid on the Pirate Bay raid. Membership exploded at that point though.
Tichy 15y ago
I think their attraction has by now moved far beyond the copyright thing. People feel that politics has become completely detached from their daily lives, and the pirate party promises to change that, for example with direct democracy. For example, anybody can get elected at the Pirate Party atm. Try that in the established parties: I think you have to join in kindergarden and toil for decades before you can make it big in an established party. If you feel strongly about some issue, could you join an established party and hope to get heard? It seems unlikely.

jellicle 15y ago

For the political hackers: note that these victories are made possible by Germany's proportional representation system, which guarantees seats in parliaments to any party which gets more than 5% of the popular vote across the state/city/whatever. Thus parties with broad but shallow support do get represented in government. The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post) expressly prohibit such broad-but-shallow movements from ever being represented in government. If the Pirate Party in a U.S. state got the same percent of the vote, they would end up with precisely zero seats in the legislature. Even if they got double that percent of the vote, they would end up with precisely zero seats in the legislature. Triple? Still zero. The U.S. electoral system is an extremely conservative one, which prevents new political movements from ever being heard in government. There are better ones, such as Germany's.

arethuza 15y ago
The Scottish Parliament actually has an element of PR, so we do get some minority parties with seats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#2011_result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament#2011_result It wouldn't surprise me if we have Pirate Party MSPs in a few years. [NB Scotland is still very much a part of the UK, at least for a couple of years or so!].
- jellicle 15y ago
  Ah, I didn't know Scotland had MMP. Good for you. I was thinking of the U.S., Canada, and UK main parliament.
- cabalamat 15y ago
  > It wouldn't surprise me if we have Pirate Party MSPs in a few years The Scottish parliament is one of the legislatures we're targetting -- it is good for us brecause it has a combination of (a) low threshold to get elected, and (b) low amount of money necessary to run an effective campaign.
hef19898 15y ago
Which electoral system is better is another discussion. Both have their flaws, but a pretty good discription of how elections work in Germany.

axx 15y ago

You should also keep in mind, that the german pirate party isn't only about copyright stuff. They're also "the only" party in germany that represents the interests of web-centric citizens. While the conservative parties try to regulate the internet in germany more an more (you know, germany has A LOT of regulations, everywhere) the pirate party is a good alternative. I'm really happy about this movement, even if they don't land a huge hit after a few years, you can see more younger people getting more interest in politics etc.

Cass 15y ago
In addition to the things you mentioned, I'm also quite happy about the existence of a party containing many young, inexperienced members in the government. They seem to be reinventing the wheel at least partly out of ignorance of the way things have always been done in German politics, and while that does lead to some chaos within the party, in some cases they're reinventing it for the better. Even if they don't manage to push through any meaningful changes at all by themselves, their mere presence seems to be enough to shake up the traditional parties, and show them that they need to be more open and inclusive towards the general public, and particularly younger voters.

buster 15y ago

Jesus... and all with a "top 10 pirated movies of all time" picture gallery.. what horrible site is that!? A pretty good article for the germans among us can be found here: http://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/texte/anzeigen/36648/ http://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/texte/anzeigen/36648/

eru 15y ago
Thanks. That's pretty good. By the way, the Neue Zurcher Zeitung often has an interesting outsider's perspective on events in Germany (e.g. http://www.nzz.ch/marktplaetze/uebersicht/kaum_gegenwind_fuer_die_deutschen_piraten_1.13030905.html http://www.nzz.ch/marktplaetze/uebersicht/kaum_gegenwind_fue...).

philippK 15y ago

I'm from Saarland (the state where the vote was last night), and i voted for the pirate party last night. They are not an anti copyright group. It's true that they want to see modifications made to overly strict copyright laws and oppose treaties like ACTA, data retention laws, web censorship laws (all of which have been proposed in germany in the last years). Their core demands are: * Improve overly strict copyright laws * Improve transparency of government (open data, foia , etc) * Improve the educational system to take advantage of the internet and other "new media" in class. * Improve citizen participation in government by having public votes on more issues They are also about the only party that has some competence when it comes to computers, the internet, etc So, as a web-centric citizen, it was easy for me to vote for them.

codesuela 15y ago

Note that by being the most net friendly party, the Pirates are the ones you should be voting for if you are part of a startup.

6ren 15y ago

Is there any particular reason this is happening first in Germany? Just chance? Is it because Germany has an electoral system that allows it? [but other nations also allow it] Or, that Germany is technically advanced, and so one of the first nations to have a sufficiently large constituent of web-centric citizens? (echoes of Martin Luther, opposing the establishment with new communications technology) [but other nations are advanced]