6 ms·

On top of what's always been said, I have some thoughts. You might be offended by them, but that's not my intention. What I'm about to say is based on experie

On top of what's always been said, I have some thoughts. You might be offended by them, but that's not my intention. What I'm about to say is based on experience. To keep things simple, I'm going to use the term "woman" instead of saying "girlfriend or wife" and "man" or "guy" in place of "boyfriend or husband." I don't like using "partner" as a substitute. I've seen many people in relationships and marriages either monopolize their partner or allow themselves to be monopolized. This is a psychology that doesn't come naturally to me since I'm particularly stubborn and individual-minded. Most of my male friends, once they are in a relationship and especially if they are married, allow their relationship to take over every aspect of their social lives. It's one thing for a man to be spending a lot of time with their woman and going on many social outings together, but the healthy boundary (IMO) ends where both parties must be involved with everything. For example, I've known many guys who believe that their woman should become a de facto member of his male friends circle; while I have known women who can absolutely be "one of the boys," that is more often not the case; by doing so, the man may be uninviting himself to future outings by his male friend group without even realizing it. I love women, but there are some topics and issues that men need to be free to hash out man-to-man without being subtly chastised by a woman who likely doesn't understand things about the male perspective. The more subtle effect is that the man has less quality time to allow him to feel close to other men, and he may not even realize it as it's happening. The same is of course true with the sexes swapped. In any case, the hypothetical man in this scenario may, at 30 years old, find himself wondering why he has no regular friends anymore; chances are some of his friends found other new friends, and others of his friends became monopolized. In a similar fashion, something I've seen women do is have their man in tow for things that obviously an average straight male would have no interest in. An example is how it's become popular for pregnant women to have multiple baby showers: one that's girls-only, and another for both girls and guys. I'm not saying that some men wouldn't want to participate in a baby shower, but let's be honest, most men don't identify with baby showers. In my limited experience, these celebrations end up as the men in one room and the women in the other, and virtually none of the men actually want to be there. My point about this is that the way I see women monopolizing their men often involves bringing them into feminine spaces they probably won't feel comfortable with, whereas usually men are either more accommodating if a woman is in the group or simply not invite women to things they know they will not be interested in. To summarize this point, I see many men and women as not respecting a healthy level of autonomy in the other person, and that women respect the time of their men even less than the men do of their women. I don't believe that making friends in adulthood is as difficult as people make it out to be. Yes, it's more difficult, but I'm not a fan of the excuses people make in this regard. When I was a kid, I was emotionally stunted, had few friends, spent some years with no friends at all, and ended up "walking the desert" for some time after college. Yet somehow I still ended up with friends at 34. I'm not going to ramble about how I approached adult friendship, but I can summarize it by saying that, if you want friends, practice being friendly, keep promises, refrain from being judgmental, think about what the other person wants, and just get out there. What keeps many people back, I think, is this idea that being by yourself while in a relationship is awkward or wrong. I think this affects men a lot more than women. If they can be spending time with a woman, the pseudological part of the male brain informs them that they should be spending time with their woman. You absolutely should be spending time with your man or woman, but not at the expense with having bonds with others. I would never expect my girlfriend to not spend time with her friends, and it seems to be more acceptable today not only for women to spend a lot of time with their friends, but also male friends. In such a case, I think women should be conscientious about whether their man is getting enough friend-time; if you know he has friends but he's not nursing those friendships, tell him to go out and play billiards with the boys. Go with him if you like, but also allow him times to go by himself. If you don't trust him to be out having fun by himself, then you have a relationship problem you need to discuss with him.

thelastparadise 3y ago
This is something that can't be said, but needs to be said. Bravo!
em-bee 3y ago
i want to give ten upvotes for this.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
> The more subtle effect is that the man has less quality time to allow him to feel close to other men, and he may not even realize it as it's happening. The same is of course true with the sexes swapped. Not as strongly. "Women spaces" are much stronger established and men are much more strongly punished for trying to invade them. There aren't many women-only activities that I can imagine a woman trying to bring a husband into. Maybe baby showers are becoming a normal exception, but it is ultimately a one off event. >I don't believe that making friends in adulthood is as difficult as people make it out to be. Yes, it's more difficult, but I'm not a fan of the excuses people make in this regard. They aren't really excuses, they are simple facts. Meetups are a revolving door of different people who only come once or twice. Can't make a deep friendship that way. I don't know if that's a generational issue, but it's a common trend I've seen over the years. Friendships aren't like learning to cook or losing weight; it's not a solitary activity completely in your power. If another person simply isn't seeking that friendship there's nothing I can do. and note I am a late 20's single male, so I don't have any other relationships "holding me back", per se. No pets, no SO's, no kids. Just a dude living alone in a house trying to reach out. Turns out there's not many hands reciprocating that reach. At least not in my demographic
- ravenstine 3y ago
  > Not as strongly. "Women spaces" are much stronger established and men are much more strongly punished for trying to invade them. There aren't many women-only activities that I can imagine a woman trying to bring a husband into. Maybe baby showers are becoming a normal exception, but it is ultimately a one off event. Totally fair. I didn't intend to suggest the effect is as strong on both sides. > There aren't many women-only activities that I can imagine a woman trying to bring a husband into. My experience doesn't totally reflect that one-to-one. I agree that there are more women-only activities that have more or less stayed that way, but I have witnessed (and sometimes experienced) plenty of cases where a woman trots out her man in scenario where he neither must be there nor is likely to actually enjoy what he's taking part in. > They aren't really excuses, they are simple facts. Meetups are a revolving door of different people who only come once or twice. Can't make a deep friendship that way. I don't know if that's a generational issue, but it's a common trend I've seen over the years. Friendships aren't like learning to cook or losing weight; it's not a solitary activity completely in your power. If another person simply isn't seeking that friendship there's nothing I can do. No, they really are excuses. Sure, there are simple facts, including that making friends as an adult can be much more challenging than making friends as a youth, but this framing of reality can easily become a crutch. > Meetups are a revolving door of different people who only come once or twice. Sure, they definitely are revolving doors. There's a lot of truth in what you're saying here. Though I have made both friends and relationships through meetups as well. Maybe I'm lucky, given that I'm a 6 on the decile scale at best. But meetups aren't the only way adults can become friends. Striking up conversations with neighbors and guys at the gym are some of the ways I've made very good friends. Your local bartender can become a friend of sorts, especially if you make their working hours a little more interesting and you are an exceptional customer. > Can't make a deep friendship that way. The likelihood is very low, but not beyond the point of not being worth trying. I used to believe what you're saying, and trust me, I'm sympathetic to seeing things like meetups as futile for long-term friends, but my mind has changed on this over time. > Friendships aren't like learning to cook or losing weight They can't be merely reduced to being like learning to do something solitary, but what you are effectively trying to communicate here simply isn't true, in my experience. Being a good friend is actually a skill, and a person can learn to be a better friend through introspection. Friendship skills need to be built and refined by being with others, but that doesn't mean there aren't ways a person can work on their friendliness by thinking about it. A lot of people, including myself at times, do things that sabotage their ability to make friends, both short-term and long-term. > If another person simply isn't seeking that friendship there's nothing I can do. This is probably true, if the person really isn't interested in more friendship. That said, I actually think most people are interested in friendship, but only the right kind of friendship at that time. If one can add something to another person's life that they aren't getting from other friends, and said person doesn't detract from the other person's life, the chance that they can form a new friendship is actually pretty good. > and note I am a late 20's single male, so I don't have any other relationships "holding me back", per se. No pets, no SO's, no kids. Just a dude living alone in a house trying to reach out. Turns out there's not many hands reciprocating that reach. At least not in my demographic I hear you, bro. Totally have been there, myself. I'm in my min thirties now and, to a certain degree, I may be retroactively applying my current station in life to a situation where not everything applies. Since you said you're "trying to reach out", I'll assume you'd be receptive to some experience from an older brother from another mother. There's a lot that's wrong about the world that puts us in this kind of situation where we can be in our 20s and struggle to make friends, so I'm definitely not saying we are at fault for this. At the same time, our own outward behavior is a determining factor on what kind of opportunities present themselves to us, and we are responsible for that behavior; in retrospect, the primary reason my early to mid 20s were so weird and solitary was because of my attitude. I wasn't doing very simple things that would put myself in situations where I'd have the opportunity to know someone. I would have gone to concerts in my 20s but didn't have the social confidence to find someone who looks receptive, start talking to them, and end up swapping numbers at the end. Even if I did, I probably would have been more interested in talking about myself rather than the other person. Thus, I would have felt like I'd done all the right things, but concluded that nobody is looking for friends, or that I'm just broken. That is, of course, just one example. Back then, I also didn't realize that my need for "the right kind" of friend was also holding me back from having more friends. The problem with not having any friends, besides being lonely, is that you have no new sources of adaptive behavior. One of the ways I learned to be more social is that I became friends with very prosocial people and saw what worked for them. Anyway, I hope I don't come off as condescending. Like I said, I think your perspective is totally valid. We're in a particularly rough time in terms of getting to know people in meatspace. If you're tried everything and have had no luck, it's possible that you could benefit by visiting other localities to find a culture with people who are more likely to vibe with you. I wish I had done that earlier in life. Things ended up working out in my home city (of which I never truly felt I belonged to), but had I realized that I'd get along better with people on the east coast of the US, I probably would have moved there in my early 20s merely for the social aspect.

thelastparadise 3y ago

This is something that can't be said, but needs to be said. Bravo!

em-bee 3y ago

i want to give ten upvotes for this.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

> The more subtle effect is that the man has less quality time to allow him to feel close to other men, and he may not even realize it as it's happening. The same is of course true with the sexes swapped. Not as strongly. "Women spaces" are much stronger established and men are much more strongly punished for trying to invade them. There aren't many women-only activities that I can imagine a woman trying to bring a husband into. Maybe baby showers are becoming a normal exception, but it is ultimately a one off event. >I don't believe that making friends in adulthood is as difficult as people make it out to be. Yes, it's more difficult, but I'm not a fan of the excuses people make in this regard. They aren't really excuses, they are simple facts. Meetups are a revolving door of different people who only come once or twice. Can't make a deep friendship that way. I don't know if that's a generational issue, but it's a common trend I've seen over the years. Friendships aren't like learning to cook or losing weight; it's not a solitary activity completely in your power. If another person simply isn't seeking that friendship there's nothing I can do. and note I am a late 20's single male, so I don't have any other relationships "holding me back", per se. No pets, no SO's, no kids. Just a dude living alone in a house trying to reach out. Turns out there's not many hands reciprocating that reach. At least not in my demographic

ravenstine 3y ago
> Not as strongly. "Women spaces" are much stronger established and men are much more strongly punished for trying to invade them. There aren't many women-only activities that I can imagine a woman trying to bring a husband into. Maybe baby showers are becoming a normal exception, but it is ultimately a one off event. Totally fair. I didn't intend to suggest the effect is as strong on both sides. > There aren't many women-only activities that I can imagine a woman trying to bring a husband into. My experience doesn't totally reflect that one-to-one. I agree that there are more women-only activities that have more or less stayed that way, but I have witnessed (and sometimes experienced) plenty of cases where a woman trots out her man in scenario where he neither must be there nor is likely to actually enjoy what he's taking part in. > They aren't really excuses, they are simple facts. Meetups are a revolving door of different people who only come once or twice. Can't make a deep friendship that way. I don't know if that's a generational issue, but it's a common trend I've seen over the years. Friendships aren't like learning to cook or losing weight; it's not a solitary activity completely in your power. If another person simply isn't seeking that friendship there's nothing I can do. No, they really are excuses. Sure, there are simple facts, including that making friends as an adult can be much more challenging than making friends as a youth, but this framing of reality can easily become a crutch. > Meetups are a revolving door of different people who only come once or twice. Sure, they definitely are revolving doors. There's a lot of truth in what you're saying here. Though I have made both friends and relationships through meetups as well. Maybe I'm lucky, given that I'm a 6 on the decile scale at best. But meetups aren't the only way adults can become friends. Striking up conversations with neighbors and guys at the gym are some of the ways I've made very good friends. Your local bartender can become a friend of sorts, especially if you make their working hours a little more interesting and you are an exceptional customer. > Can't make a deep friendship that way. The likelihood is very low, but not beyond the point of not being worth trying. I used to believe what you're saying, and trust me, I'm sympathetic to seeing things like meetups as futile for long-term friends, but my mind has changed on this over time. > Friendships aren't like learning to cook or losing weight They can't be merely reduced to being like learning to do something solitary, but what you are effectively trying to communicate here simply isn't true, in my experience. Being a good friend is actually a skill, and a person can learn to be a better friend through introspection. Friendship skills need to be built and refined by being with others, but that doesn't mean there aren't ways a person can work on their friendliness by thinking about it. A lot of people, including myself at times, do things that sabotage their ability to make friends, both short-term and long-term. > If another person simply isn't seeking that friendship there's nothing I can do. This is probably true, if the person really isn't interested in more friendship. That said, I actually think most people are interested in friendship, but only the right kind of friendship at that time. If one can add something to another person's life that they aren't getting from other friends, and said person doesn't detract from the other person's life, the chance that they can form a new friendship is actually pretty good. > and note I am a late 20's single male, so I don't have any other relationships "holding me back", per se. No pets, no SO's, no kids. Just a dude living alone in a house trying to reach out. Turns out there's not many hands reciprocating that reach. At least not in my demographic I hear you, bro. Totally have been there, myself. I'm in my min thirties now and, to a certain degree, I may be retroactively applying my current station in life to a situation where not everything applies. Since you said you're "trying to reach out", I'll assume you'd be receptive to some experience from an older brother from another mother. There's a lot that's wrong about the world that puts us in this kind of situation where we can be in our 20s and struggle to make friends, so I'm definitely not saying we are at fault for this. At the same time, our own outward behavior is a determining factor on what kind of opportunities present themselves to us, and we are responsible for that behavior; in retrospect, the primary reason my early to mid 20s were so weird and solitary was because of my attitude. I wasn't doing very simple things that would put myself in situations where I'd have the opportunity to know someone. I would have gone to concerts in my 20s but didn't have the social confidence to find someone who looks receptive, start talking to them, and end up swapping numbers at the end. Even if I did, I probably would have been more interested in talking about myself rather than the other person. Thus, I would have felt like I'd done all the right things, but concluded that nobody is looking for friends, or that I'm just broken. That is, of course, just one example. Back then, I also didn't realize that my need for "the right kind" of friend was also holding me back from having more friends. The problem with not having any friends, besides being lonely, is that you have no new sources of adaptive behavior. One of the ways I learned to be more social is that I became friends with very prosocial people and saw what worked for them. Anyway, I hope I don't come off as condescending. Like I said, I think your perspective is totally valid. We're in a particularly rough time in terms of getting to know people in meatspace. If you're tried everything and have had no luck, it's possible that you could benefit by visiting other localities to find a culture with people who are more likely to vibe with you. I wish I had done that earlier in life. Things ended up working out in my home city (of which I never truly felt I belonged to), but had I realized that I'd get along better with people on the east coast of the US, I probably would have moved there in my early 20s merely for the social aspect.