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There's a simple material angle that people aren't talking about enough with all these discussions: Population growth has outpaced home construction (in the US

There's a simple material angle that people aren't talking about enough with all these discussions: Population growth has outpaced home construction (in the USA) for the past 20 years https://usafacts.org/articles/population-growth-has-outpaced-home-construction-for-20-years/ https://usafacts.org/articles/population-growth-has-outpaced...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bugglebeetle 3y ago
…because housing has turned into a highly-financialized, speculative asset, whose value you drive up by limiting supply and through rentiering. When you can make more money from buying up homes and blocking construction than you can from building new ones, what results is the crisis we have. It’s the same in many countries (e.g. Canada).
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  If nothing changes I think the endgame is increasing ownership of housing by investment firms. As prices increase, they will be the only actors with consistent access to the kind of capital needed to buy real estate.
mo1ok 3y ago
No one wants to say it, but immigration is a huge driver of housing un-affordability. Skilled H1b immigration and/or foreign buyers drives up home prices, and unskilled illegal immigration drives up rents.
- FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
  It's a mixed bag. Immigrant labor (sometimes illegal) also builds the houses. Second, while you're distracted worrying about who gets to come in to the US, you're going to ignore an equally important question: How can you get out?
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    Yep The 'Right' is a mix of strange bed fellows. The Right -> Support Business which desires immigrants, they need cheap workers and to keep wages down. The Right -> The people displaced by immigrants that want to ban them. The Right is a bit schizophrenic.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      It's almost as if collapsing personal beliefs into a two dimensional scale doesn't work!
      - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        Well, there are only two parties. It is just a curiosity how the 'business' side with money, has convinced the poor Christians that Jesus was for free-markets and guns. How do they do it? Is it all marketing and posturing? Why are US Christians so un-Christian and so easily fooled?
        junofan 3y ago
        Not sure about free markets, but the Bible literally has Jesus telling poor people to sell their stuff until they can buy a sword for self-defense: https://www.bibleref.com/Luke/22/Luke-22-36.html https://www.bibleref.com/Luke/22/Luke-22-36.html
        FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        Was not aware of that one. Seems that even among Christians that passage is a little in debate. Was it a metaphor for spiritual sword? Was it just for show? or Real defense? "the sword that Jesus commands His disciples to acquire is not an iron sword but the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God." https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/what-did-jesus-mean-when-he-said-sell-your-cloak-and-buy-a-sword.html https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/what-did-jesu... "Maybe this explains why Jesus replied with “that is enough” in Luke 22:38 upon hearing that the disciples already possessed two swords: their purpose was for show, not for action. (Alternatively, He may have been frustrated with their resolute tendency to accept His teachings literally)." However, instead of thanking Peter for protecting Him, Jesus gives His disciple His own earful — of chastisement! “‘Put your sword back in its place,’ Jesus said to him, ‘for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52). Additionally, He heals Malchus’ ear.
- GolfPopper 3y ago
  The drivers for both types of immigration are US employers who don't want to pay the cost of domestic skilled and unskilled labor.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Immigration flow must be governed by wage and employment metrics. Everyone fully employed at living wages? Open the spigot. Surplus domestic labor? Slowly close the spigot except for highly skilled workers (that you can prove are highly skilled an unattainable in the domestic market). Otherwise, you're just driving down wages and boosting corporate/business profits with imported labor while exposing the government to domestic welfare program costs for unemployed and underemployed citizens.
    - astrange 3y ago
      No, immigration increases wages in all circumstances economists have ever studied, because they increase demand more than supply. Even true for mass migrant incidents where you aren't selecting them for skill. It helps that we tend to not let their families work when they come over, although that's kind of bad.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Please share a citation (or citations). 52 million Americans currently don't earn a living wage, forcing them to rely on social safety nets. Disingenuous to argue for more immigration when so many workers are already underpaid. https://thehill.com/lobbying/4170972-15-an-hour-isnt-enough-u-s-workers-need-to-earn-a-living-wage/ https://thehill.com/lobbying/4170972-15-an-hour-isnt-enough-... https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/research-publications/the-crisis-of-low-wages-in-the-us/ https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/research-publications/t...
        astrange 3y ago
        Yes, they don't earn a living wage because housing is too expensive; the issue is the "living" part. The nominal wage growth has actually been doing okay lately, by which I mean post-2019. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-immigration-doesnt-reduce-wages https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-immigration-doesnt-reduce-...
- Spivak 3y ago
  Sex is a huge driver of housing un-affordability! Straight marriage is an unsustainable lifestyle choice /s. > unskilled illegal immigration drives up rents. Unskilled and being able to pay those higher rents sounds like they're delivering plenty of value and they're living in the area where they work so what right to you have to claim housing more than them?
- hermannj314 3y ago
  Can you quantify this? I glanced at the percent of immigrants in the US population and the median house price/median income, but both graphs go all over the place over the decades. Can you elaborate on why you think this?
  - astrange 3y ago
    People who are opposed to immigration just like saying everything is caused by immigration.
quacked 3y ago
Most people who talk about the housing shortage using the term "housing shortage" find it unethical to suggest restricting the rate at which new people are allowed to settle in the United States.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bugglebeetle 3y ago

…because housing has turned into a highly-financialized, speculative asset, whose value you drive up by limiting supply and through rentiering. When you can make more money from buying up homes and blocking construction than you can from building new ones, what results is the crisis we have. It’s the same in many countries (e.g. Canada).

AlexandrB 3y ago
If nothing changes I think the endgame is increasing ownership of housing by investment firms. As prices increase, they will be the only actors with consistent access to the kind of capital needed to buy real estate.

mo1ok 3y ago

No one wants to say it, but immigration is a huge driver of housing un-affordability. Skilled H1b immigration and/or foreign buyers drives up home prices, and unskilled illegal immigration drives up rents.

FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
It's a mixed bag. Immigrant labor (sometimes illegal) also builds the houses. Second, while you're distracted worrying about who gets to come in to the US, you're going to ignore an equally important question: How can you get out?
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Yep The 'Right' is a mix of strange bed fellows. The Right -> Support Business which desires immigrants, they need cheap workers and to keep wages down. The Right -> The people displaced by immigrants that want to ban them. The Right is a bit schizophrenic.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    It's almost as if collapsing personal beliefs into a two dimensional scale doesn't work!
    - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
      Well, there are only two parties. It is just a curiosity how the 'business' side with money, has convinced the poor Christians that Jesus was for free-markets and guns. How do they do it? Is it all marketing and posturing? Why are US Christians so un-Christian and so easily fooled?
      - junofan 3y ago
        Not sure about free markets, but the Bible literally has Jesus telling poor people to sell their stuff until they can buy a sword for self-defense: https://www.bibleref.com/Luke/22/Luke-22-36.html https://www.bibleref.com/Luke/22/Luke-22-36.html
        FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        Was not aware of that one. Seems that even among Christians that passage is a little in debate. Was it a metaphor for spiritual sword? Was it just for show? or Real defense? "the sword that Jesus commands His disciples to acquire is not an iron sword but the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God." https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/what-did-jesus-mean-when-he-said-sell-your-cloak-and-buy-a-sword.html https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/what-did-jesu... "Maybe this explains why Jesus replied with “that is enough” in Luke 22:38 upon hearing that the disciples already possessed two swords: their purpose was for show, not for action. (Alternatively, He may have been frustrated with their resolute tendency to accept His teachings literally)." However, instead of thanking Peter for protecting Him, Jesus gives His disciple His own earful — of chastisement! “‘Put your sword back in its place,’ Jesus said to him, ‘for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52). Additionally, He heals Malchus’ ear.
GolfPopper 3y ago
The drivers for both types of immigration are US employers who don't want to pay the cost of domestic skilled and unskilled labor.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Immigration flow must be governed by wage and employment metrics. Everyone fully employed at living wages? Open the spigot. Surplus domestic labor? Slowly close the spigot except for highly skilled workers (that you can prove are highly skilled an unattainable in the domestic market). Otherwise, you're just driving down wages and boosting corporate/business profits with imported labor while exposing the government to domestic welfare program costs for unemployed and underemployed citizens.
  - astrange 3y ago
    No, immigration increases wages in all circumstances economists have ever studied, because they increase demand more than supply. Even true for mass migrant incidents where you aren't selecting them for skill. It helps that we tend to not let their families work when they come over, although that's kind of bad.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Please share a citation (or citations). 52 million Americans currently don't earn a living wage, forcing them to rely on social safety nets. Disingenuous to argue for more immigration when so many workers are already underpaid. https://thehill.com/lobbying/4170972-15-an-hour-isnt-enough-u-s-workers-need-to-earn-a-living-wage/ https://thehill.com/lobbying/4170972-15-an-hour-isnt-enough-... https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/research-publications/the-crisis-of-low-wages-in-the-us/ https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/research-publications/t...
      - astrange 3y ago
        Yes, they don't earn a living wage because housing is too expensive; the issue is the "living" part. The nominal wage growth has actually been doing okay lately, by which I mean post-2019. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-immigration-doesnt-reduce-wages https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-immigration-doesnt-reduce-...
Spivak 3y ago
Sex is a huge driver of housing un-affordability! Straight marriage is an unsustainable lifestyle choice /s. > unskilled illegal immigration drives up rents. Unskilled and being able to pay those higher rents sounds like they're delivering plenty of value and they're living in the area where they work so what right to you have to claim housing more than them?
hermannj314 3y ago
Can you quantify this? I glanced at the percent of immigrants in the US population and the median house price/median income, but both graphs go all over the place over the decades. Can you elaborate on why you think this?
- astrange 3y ago
  People who are opposed to immigration just like saying everything is caused by immigration.

quacked 3y ago

Most people who talk about the housing shortage using the term "housing shortage" find it unethical to suggest restricting the rate at which new people are allowed to settle in the United States.