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In modern life in cities men can choose to have friends or a family but not both. That’s my pet theory as to why straight people are putting off kids or not hav

In modern life in cities men can choose to have friends or a family but not both. That’s my pet theory as to why straight people are putting off kids or not having them entirely—the outlook is very bleak.

mbg721 3y ago
You can still have friends after starting a family, but you don't get to pick them in the same way; they're the parents of your kids' friends.
- patch_cable 3y ago
  You can still have other friends. It just takes more effort to build and maintain those relationships.
  - rednerrus 3y ago
    It's a whole lot easier when your friends have kids. Otherwise you get left behind.
    - patch_cable 3y ago
      It is easier when friends, for whatever reason, understand that I can't just "get a babysitter" to come out with them on a Friday night.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        The issue is the cost of friction loss. In the past, lets say baby boom years, almost everyone had kids so the family friction coefficient was very similar between different friends. But these days it's quite different. We typically don't leave our kids at home alone any more (GenX represent!). There is also a much larger group of people without kinds (DINKs and SINKs) that have far more free time than those with kids. So for them the equation changes. They have the cost of inviting you and the friction you experience. Or the cost of inviting the childless friends they know. Or the cost of the myriad of entertainment options we have these days.
  - alxjrvs 3y ago
    Also co-signing, though it involved choosing my friends over the course of the last decade and making an effort to stay in touch, my friend circle has a fair amount of parents and non-parents. Paradoxically, I talk to one of my oldest pals more frequently now, because he logs on to a game after his kids go to sleep and is always happy to party up. We are also pretty distanced from one another, but make the effort to check in with each other so we stay close. Not saying it isn't hard, and not saying it isn't a challenge at times (I certainly don't see my friends in person as much!) but the idea that having kids forces you to be friendless is absurd.
  - yeahwhatever10 3y ago
    Maintaining relationships is the hardest part. When you are young you don't maintain relationships with friends you see them everyday at school and this is true all the way through college. Once out of college it is the people inside your routine that are your friends, be it a work or a hobby. Upon having a child your routine changes yet again and will change rapidly as the child grows. It is the difficulty of maintaining relationships through the shifting routine of life that is so difficult. You need one aspect of your routine that has stability through the change. Mine is physical activity.
- dllthomas 3y ago
  I have friends, but only a couple that aren't (or weren't recently) coworkers, and I don't see them in person often.
- Pet_Ant 3y ago
  I mean they really aren't your friends now are they? The relationships are really conditional on your children, not on your own interests and personality. You are basically agreeing that you can no longer have friends, but countering that you can choose to socialize with fellow parents. I mean, that's pretty dystopian when you look at it unless you really think that raising children is the highest purpose a person can have. (Disclaimer: single parent)
  - watwut 3y ago
    Female friendships also follow that pattern and the loneliness problem is supposed to be smaller for women. The big thing is that having kids really changes a lot - times when you are available, amount of money you have, the sort of acute problems you have in your life. An adult person with children can not have as much free time as childless one, can not go on longer weekend away as often, can not spend as much time in hobbies. Children's parents are people you meet naturally, in exact same way you meet collegues of people in se share hobby activity.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    >unless you really think that raising children is the highest purpose a person can have. While I don't think that, what's encoded in your DNA puts that up really high on the priority list. No children = DNA line extinction. Therefore the most likely DNA you see are the lines that put a lot of effort into reproducing. The particular issue with having children is you've made a commitment. It's perfectly fine to have non-children conditional relationships until there is a conflict of interest between the two groups. If one group says "come out and drink all night" while the other says "teach your children things make sure you provide them a stable environment", you are probably living a life of regret and should not have had children in the first place.
  - thelastparadise 3y ago
    > unless you really think that raising children is the highest purpose a person can have. No, it's not that, but there are purposes in life aside from social gathering, for which social gathering is a natural side-effect. Going to school or work is a big example. But it can be more subtle: try sometime, look actively for opportunities to help others. That is, don't try to fix them or their situation, but rather look for genuine opportunities where your skills, resources, or luck puts you in a place where your'e able to do something without great cost to yourself, but which has a massive impact on another person. Start racking these up and things may change...
- elcritch 3y ago
  Or they make friends of other parents and their kids become friends or playmates. Having cousins is also similar.
- ghusto 3y ago
  They're not friends, they're acquittances that I (have to) tolerate. I don't think my bar is high, or that I'm much of a snob in this respect, but I find other parents insufferable. Were they always like this? Did this happen to them after they had kids? Is it that only those types of people have kids, and I'm in the exception group? Whatever it is, I can not have any fun with them. For a long time I thought it was me, but then it occurred to me that I shouldn't be able to have fun with non-parents if that were the case. The problem with non-parents is, they're not parents :/ Your lives are just too different, but I _can_ have fun with them!
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    > I don't think my bar is high, or that I'm much of a snob in this respect, but I find other parents insufferable. "If you're bored then you're boring" and if everyone else is a shmuck... maybe it's you, killer.
    - ghusto 3y ago
      Cute quote, but sometimes it really is everyone else.
euroderf 3y ago
Downing brews outside the house with your pre-kid friends requires planning.
Eumenes 3y ago
Modern life in cities just equates to spending money at restaurants, bars, and breweries. Only so many events and museums you can attend. Go to a brewery on a Saturday/Sunday - its just young couple with a kid and dog, one gets drunk, the other drives (and maybe drinks less).
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  Good Christ, go play football or D&D or something. The average age in my D&D club is probably in the 40s, we've got everyone from students to retired folk who played back in the 70s.

mbg721 3y ago

You can still have friends after starting a family, but you don't get to pick them in the same way; they're the parents of your kids' friends.

patch_cable 3y ago
You can still have other friends. It just takes more effort to build and maintain those relationships.
- rednerrus 3y ago
  It's a whole lot easier when your friends have kids. Otherwise you get left behind.
  - patch_cable 3y ago
    It is easier when friends, for whatever reason, understand that I can't just "get a babysitter" to come out with them on a Friday night.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      The issue is the cost of friction loss. In the past, lets say baby boom years, almost everyone had kids so the family friction coefficient was very similar between different friends. But these days it's quite different. We typically don't leave our kids at home alone any more (GenX represent!). There is also a much larger group of people without kinds (DINKs and SINKs) that have far more free time than those with kids. So for them the equation changes. They have the cost of inviting you and the friction you experience. Or the cost of inviting the childless friends they know. Or the cost of the myriad of entertainment options we have these days.
- alxjrvs 3y ago
  Also co-signing, though it involved choosing my friends over the course of the last decade and making an effort to stay in touch, my friend circle has a fair amount of parents and non-parents. Paradoxically, I talk to one of my oldest pals more frequently now, because he logs on to a game after his kids go to sleep and is always happy to party up. We are also pretty distanced from one another, but make the effort to check in with each other so we stay close. Not saying it isn't hard, and not saying it isn't a challenge at times (I certainly don't see my friends in person as much!) but the idea that having kids forces you to be friendless is absurd.
- yeahwhatever10 3y ago
  Maintaining relationships is the hardest part. When you are young you don't maintain relationships with friends you see them everyday at school and this is true all the way through college. Once out of college it is the people inside your routine that are your friends, be it a work or a hobby. Upon having a child your routine changes yet again and will change rapidly as the child grows. It is the difficulty of maintaining relationships through the shifting routine of life that is so difficult. You need one aspect of your routine that has stability through the change. Mine is physical activity.
dllthomas 3y ago
I have friends, but only a couple that aren't (or weren't recently) coworkers, and I don't see them in person often.
Pet_Ant 3y ago
I mean they really aren't your friends now are they? The relationships are really conditional on your children, not on your own interests and personality. You are basically agreeing that you can no longer have friends, but countering that you can choose to socialize with fellow parents. I mean, that's pretty dystopian when you look at it unless you really think that raising children is the highest purpose a person can have. (Disclaimer: single parent)
- watwut 3y ago
  Female friendships also follow that pattern and the loneliness problem is supposed to be smaller for women. The big thing is that having kids really changes a lot - times when you are available, amount of money you have, the sort of acute problems you have in your life. An adult person with children can not have as much free time as childless one, can not go on longer weekend away as often, can not spend as much time in hobbies. Children's parents are people you meet naturally, in exact same way you meet collegues of people in se share hobby activity.
- pixl97 3y ago
  >unless you really think that raising children is the highest purpose a person can have. While I don't think that, what's encoded in your DNA puts that up really high on the priority list. No children = DNA line extinction. Therefore the most likely DNA you see are the lines that put a lot of effort into reproducing. The particular issue with having children is you've made a commitment. It's perfectly fine to have non-children conditional relationships until there is a conflict of interest between the two groups. If one group says "come out and drink all night" while the other says "teach your children things make sure you provide them a stable environment", you are probably living a life of regret and should not have had children in the first place.
- thelastparadise 3y ago
  > unless you really think that raising children is the highest purpose a person can have. No, it's not that, but there are purposes in life aside from social gathering, for which social gathering is a natural side-effect. Going to school or work is a big example. But it can be more subtle: try sometime, look actively for opportunities to help others. That is, don't try to fix them or their situation, but rather look for genuine opportunities where your skills, resources, or luck puts you in a place where your'e able to do something without great cost to yourself, but which has a massive impact on another person. Start racking these up and things may change...
elcritch 3y ago
Or they make friends of other parents and their kids become friends or playmates. Having cousins is also similar.
ghusto 3y ago
They're not friends, they're acquittances that I (have to) tolerate. I don't think my bar is high, or that I'm much of a snob in this respect, but I find other parents insufferable. Were they always like this? Did this happen to them after they had kids? Is it that only those types of people have kids, and I'm in the exception group? Whatever it is, I can not have any fun with them. For a long time I thought it was me, but then it occurred to me that I shouldn't be able to have fun with non-parents if that were the case. The problem with non-parents is, they're not parents :/ Your lives are just too different, but I _can_ have fun with them!
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  > I don't think my bar is high, or that I'm much of a snob in this respect, but I find other parents insufferable. "If you're bored then you're boring" and if everyone else is a shmuck... maybe it's you, killer.
  - ghusto 3y ago
    Cute quote, but sometimes it really is everyone else.

euroderf 3y ago

Downing brews outside the house with your pre-kid friends requires planning.

Eumenes 3y ago

Modern life in cities just equates to spending money at restaurants, bars, and breweries. Only so many events and museums you can attend. Go to a brewery on a Saturday/Sunday - its just young couple with a kid and dog, one gets drunk, the other drives (and maybe drinks less).

dukeyukey 3y ago
Good Christ, go play football or D&D or something. The average age in my D&D club is probably in the 40s, we've got everyone from students to retired folk who played back in the 70s.