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California's law to end single family zoning Not sure how this fits in. It only had 25% nay votes in the assembly and 17.5% nay votes in the senate. Some nay v

by dfxm12 3y ago

California's law to end single family zoning Not sure how this fits in. It only had 25% nay votes in the assembly and 17.5% nay votes in the senate. Some nay votes came from a D from SF and someone form Huntington Beach, so the vote really wasn't on party or urban-rural lines. I also wonder how genuine you're being when you say a measure that gives someone more freedom (to build what they want on their property) is someone telling you how to live your life. Gun laws in most blue states. I'm not really sure laws what you mean. We have to recognize that nationwide, 63% of adults are dissatisfied with our current gun laws. In light of this, we have the SCOTUS striking down gun laws that most people want. This doesn't appear to be the win you think it is. https://news.gallup.com/poll/470588/dissatisfaction-gun-laws-hits-new-high.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/470588/dissatisfaction-gun-laws... Washington's comprehensive sex ed law I'm not sure what to say when you think direct democracy is bad with regards to state measures. Like the recent ruling with abortion: it made it not a federal concern. That's it. Why do people in California care so much about what e.g. Alabama is doing now? Well, this specific issue aside, this current trend of conservatives trying to legislate from the SCOTUS (people appointed for a lifetime) is largely undemocratic. If you don't want people who don't even live in your town dictating how to run it, you should be very opposed to SCOTUS doing just that, since they basically answer to no one.

ndriscoll 3y ago
You're really missing the point here. The entire point being made is that what the voters at the level of a state or the entire nation is irrelevant because it shouldn't be their decision to vote on. Even if 75% of California residents want to ban single family zoning, if 75% of residents in Redding want to keep it in Redding, why should people in San Diego have any more than 0% influence on that decision? People 600 miles away should have exactly zero input into something like that. It's not about whether the decisions being made are good. It's about who gets to make them/how broadly they apply. China could have the greatest ideas in the world, but it doesn't make sense to "democratically" vote with equal representation between US and Chinese citizens on what free speech laws in the US should be. They have 4x the population and nothing in common. Such a "democracy" would be a farce.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Even if 75% of California residents want to ban single family zoning, if 75% of residents in Redding want to keep it in Redding, why should people in San Diego have any more than 0% influence on that decision? Because Redding isn't an independent, self-supporting, sovereign entity, its an administrative subdivision of California whose existence as an entity and powers of government are delegated to it by the people of the State of California through the Constitution and laws of said State (in part directly, and in part indirectly through, e.g., Shasta County, a similar but higher-level subdivision within which Redding is nested), and which is funded in no small part by distribution of taxes set and collected by and from the State of California as a whole.
  - ndriscoll 3y ago
    No one is discussing the legality of such things. The discussion is whether things like that are just. That's why e.g. eastern Oregon has a secession movement. The west side of the state can legally tell the east side to do what they want. The east side does not feel that being in a shared democracy with the west side is working.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > No one is discussing the legality of such things. The discussion is whether things like that are just. That's what I was discussing, too. If there was a Redding-separatist movement, we could discuss whether Reading separatism is just and whether that changes the justice of decision-making arrangements, but the justice of decision-making authority within the current context is not independent of the structure of that context aside from the particular decision-making question being examined, and where “Redding” fits into that structure. (This is also a separate question from the justice of particular decisions; like it can be just for the people of California at large to be the decisive decision-making authority, and still be unjust for them to make a particular decision. But that wasn't the question.)
      - ndriscoll 3y ago

by dfxm12 3y ago

ndriscoll 3y ago

You're really missing the point here. The entire point being made is that what the voters at the level of a state or the entire nation is irrelevant because it shouldn't be their decision to vote on. Even if 75% of California residents want to ban single family zoning, if 75% of residents in Redding want to keep it in Redding, why should people in San Diego have any more than 0% influence on that decision? People 600 miles away should have exactly zero input into something like that. It's not about whether the decisions being made are good. It's about who gets to make them/how broadly they apply. China could have the greatest ideas in the world, but it doesn't make sense to "democratically" vote with equal representation between US and Chinese citizens on what free speech laws in the US should be. They have 4x the population and nothing in common. Such a "democracy" would be a farce.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> Even if 75% of California residents want to ban single family zoning, if 75% of residents in Redding want to keep it in Redding, why should people in San Diego have any more than 0% influence on that decision? Because Redding isn't an independent, self-supporting, sovereign entity, its an administrative subdivision of California whose existence as an entity and powers of government are delegated to it by the people of the State of California through the Constitution and laws of said State (in part directly, and in part indirectly through, e.g., Shasta County, a similar but higher-level subdivision within which Redding is nested), and which is funded in no small part by distribution of taxes set and collected by and from the State of California as a whole.
- ndriscoll 3y ago
  No one is discussing the legality of such things. The discussion is whether things like that are just. That's why e.g. eastern Oregon has a secession movement. The west side of the state can legally tell the east side to do what they want. The east side does not feel that being in a shared democracy with the west side is working.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > No one is discussing the legality of such things. The discussion is whether things like that are just. That's what I was discussing, too. If there was a Redding-separatist movement, we could discuss whether Reading separatism is just and whether that changes the justice of decision-making arrangements, but the justice of decision-making authority within the current context is not independent of the structure of that context aside from the particular decision-making question being examined, and where “Redding” fits into that structure. (This is also a separate question from the justice of particular decisions; like it can be just for the people of California at large to be the decisive decision-making authority, and still be unjust for them to make a particular decision. But that wasn't the question.)
    - ndriscoll 3y ago