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Humans have this ability to obfuscate any issue. When there is a simple pattern for things some people always take edge cases and argue that the pattern is real

Humans have this ability to obfuscate any issue. When there is a simple pattern for things some people always take edge cases and argue that the pattern is really not true. They don’t understand how models of the world work. Of course it’s not ideal but it’s a useful framework for understanding things. I imagine the reason Newton’s laws never developed before was because of all the influential know-it-alls who took empirical data (moving objects stop! Gaseous balloons rise!) and drew the wrong conclusions from it (gases want to rise up to be with all the other gases…solids want to be at rest.) It took Newton to do a thought experiment of a projectile moving in outer space to deduce his laws of motion. The fact is that newtons laws aren’t really observable on earth, unless you have the imagination to see it and do the mental bookkeeping of accounting for friction as a separate force.

EricMausler 3y ago
I'm not sure which side you are arguing for? Is the simple metaphor of 3 layers in the brain equivalent to saying gasses want to be together and solids want to rest? I think part of the debate in the comment section is on what kind of order / pattern we are trying to capture with the analogy. Does it make more sense to be analogous to the structural observations, or a more functional equivalency? You could say an ocean is like a desert in that they are vast and empty with respect to surface structures observed by a human traveller, but obviously from a functional /environmental perspective the two almost couldn't be more dissimilar
xzsinu 3y ago
The triune model of the brain is not just a simplification, but one that promotes antiquated biases about human intelligence in how human intelligence differs from non-human intelligence, how intelligence is distributed among humans themselves, and what is essential to defining human intelligence itself. The lizard, small mammal, human distinction maps pretty deceptively onto Aristotle's distinctions between the souls: vegetative (plant), sensitive (animal), and rational (human). So if one is trying to pinpoint the seat of intelligence, it seems to follow that we can ignore the two lower sections of the brain in favor of the higher one. Franz Joseph Gall, the founder of phrenology, himself did that, writing off the cerebellum as relevant only for producing the sexual drive [1]. Scientific theories of self-control which were nothing more than Christian dualist arguments evolved out of Gall's work and argued that intelligence involved suppression of the lower faculties, which provided cover for eugenicist and supremacist arguments throughout the 20th century and still shows up today in popular theories about how the 'limbic system' subverts the rational capacities of individuals and is used to manipulate the masses (Elon loves this theory). Current work funded at the intersection of artificial intelligence and neuroscience still prioritizes the neocortex as the seat of rationality, with some like Jeff Hawkins (Palm founder turned brain scientist) arguing that "intelligence is an algorithm found in the neocortex". Singularity arguments rely in part on the assumption that intelligence in humans is mostly limited by the other parts of the brain, not empowered by them, and that a form of intelligence freed of embodiment will inevitably exterminate those that are embodied by right. The truth is, neglected sub-regions such as the "lizard" cerebellum actually contain the vast majority of neurons, have been shown to have evolved disproportionately larger within early hominins [2], and are theorized to be equally involved in abstract cognition as in bodily manipulation [3]. This is something of a paradigm shift that has only been able to take shape since the late 20th-century (through the work of Jeremy Schmahmann, Peter Strick and others[4]), even though hints of it have been present in the data since it was collected, and that's because of how compelling the triune brain model has been. Research in this direction can directly address mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, but it has to be funded first [5]. [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnana.2019.00040/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnana.2019.0004... [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25283776/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25283776/ [3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304394018304671 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03043... [4] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627319301667 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089662731... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UUqKuhvTk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UUqKuhvTk0
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- feoren 3y ago
  Your argument seems to mostly rest on the idea that people can "poison" a fundamental idea by misinterpreting it and drawing silly conclusions from it. It sounds like if I argued that "1 + 1 = 2 and therefore we should do genocide", you'd be (rightly) abhorred by the conclusion, and the next time you saw someone using 1 + 1 = 2 as the basis for a completely different argument, you'd villainize them as using an argument that "promotes genocide" or "has been used to justify genocide". I really don't care what the founder of phrenology thought, nor Christian dualists, nor even Jeff Hawkins. In general I think this effect contributes to a lot of "over-debunking". We see way over-simplified, yet very loosely accurate, mid 20th century scientific models like the triune brain, "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny", the left-brain vs. right-brain, and the idea that differences in language contribute to differences in cognition; and then silly people take these models way too far and use them to justify dubious things; and then they become over-debunked to the point that speaking them aloud immediately ostracizes you as some outdated bigot; while the whole time the models themselves have been reasonably OK high-level starting points for discussion that obviously need revision for any lower-level details. > The truth is, neglected sub-regions such as the "lizard" cerebellum actually contain the vast majority of neurons, have been shown to have evolved disproportionately larger within early hominins [2], and are theorized to be equally involved in abstract cognition as in bodily manipulation. The relative number of neurons is not evidence for or against the model, nor the fact that they were larger in early hominins. Showing their involvement in abstract cognition is more interesting, but that's only evidence against the triune brain if you make the exact same mistake that you're criticizing, which is assuming that "abstract cognition" is some high-level uniquely human (or primate) trait. If that exact "abstract cognition" also exists in reptiles and birds (and it appears to), then the fact that the cerebellum contributes to that cognition is not evidence against Triune Brain.
  - RugnirViking 3y ago
    > We see way over-simplified, yet very loosely accurate, mid 20th century scientific models like the... I think its important for people to also spread the idea that "this is known to not be correct". Bad mental models continue to proliferate for generations (bad here not being a value judgement but rather of their known incorrectness and lack of predictive power). It's like when you tell people that the alpha/beta dynamic amongst wolves came from one flawed study that has not been replicated and shown to be false many many years ago now. Same with "learning styles" research. Its difficult to approach the subject in a way that doesn't cause people to get defensive sometimes - they like the simplistic model which may once have been a fine point for a beginner but they got stuck in it and it can impair their growth and understanding. It's fine for a layperson to walk around believing whatever they like - its likely closer to the truth than whatever they might otherwise have thought, or at least got them thinking. It becomes a problem when people actually base decisions off these things.
mistermann 3y ago
> They don’t understand how models of the world work. Of course it’s not ideal but it’s a useful framework for understanding things. Based on the rather casual way the author is using language in this piece, I'd bet that the researchers forgot that what they are describing are (nested) model(s) of reality...or that that level of precision is "pedantic" (the consequence being the confusion in this comment section).

EricMausler 3y ago

I'm not sure which side you are arguing for? Is the simple metaphor of 3 layers in the brain equivalent to saying gasses want to be together and solids want to rest? I think part of the debate in the comment section is on what kind of order / pattern we are trying to capture with the analogy. Does it make more sense to be analogous to the structural observations, or a more functional equivalency? You could say an ocean is like a desert in that they are vast and empty with respect to surface structures observed by a human traveller, but obviously from a functional /environmental perspective the two almost couldn't be more dissimilar

xzsinu 3y ago

The triune model of the brain is not just a simplification, but one that promotes antiquated biases about human intelligence in how human intelligence differs from non-human intelligence, how intelligence is distributed among humans themselves, and what is essential to defining human intelligence itself. The lizard, small mammal, human distinction maps pretty deceptively onto Aristotle's distinctions between the souls: vegetative (plant), sensitive (animal), and rational (human). So if one is trying to pinpoint the seat of intelligence, it seems to follow that we can ignore the two lower sections of the brain in favor of the higher one. Franz Joseph Gall, the founder of phrenology, himself did that, writing off the cerebellum as relevant only for producing the sexual drive [1]. Scientific theories of self-control which were nothing more than Christian dualist arguments evolved out of Gall's work and argued that intelligence involved suppression of the lower faculties, which provided cover for eugenicist and supremacist arguments throughout the 20th century and still shows up today in popular theories about how the 'limbic system' subverts the rational capacities of individuals and is used to manipulate the masses (Elon loves this theory). Current work funded at the intersection of artificial intelligence and neuroscience still prioritizes the neocortex as the seat of rationality, with some like Jeff Hawkins (Palm founder turned brain scientist) arguing that "intelligence is an algorithm found in the neocortex". Singularity arguments rely in part on the assumption that intelligence in humans is mostly limited by the other parts of the brain, not empowered by them, and that a form of intelligence freed of embodiment will inevitably exterminate those that are embodied by right. The truth is, neglected sub-regions such as the "lizard" cerebellum actually contain the vast majority of neurons, have been shown to have evolved disproportionately larger within early hominins [2], and are theorized to be equally involved in abstract cognition as in bodily manipulation [3]. This is something of a paradigm shift that has only been able to take shape since the late 20th-century (through the work of Jeremy Schmahmann, Peter Strick and others[4]), even though hints of it have been present in the data since it was collected, and that's because of how compelling the triune brain model has been. Research in this direction can directly address mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, but it has to be funded first [5]. [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnana.2019.00040/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnana.2019.0004... [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25283776/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25283776/ [3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304394018304671 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03043... [4] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627319301667 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089662731... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UUqKuhvTk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UUqKuhvTk0

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
feoren 3y ago
Your argument seems to mostly rest on the idea that people can "poison" a fundamental idea by misinterpreting it and drawing silly conclusions from it. It sounds like if I argued that "1 + 1 = 2 and therefore we should do genocide", you'd be (rightly) abhorred by the conclusion, and the next time you saw someone using 1 + 1 = 2 as the basis for a completely different argument, you'd villainize them as using an argument that "promotes genocide" or "has been used to justify genocide". I really don't care what the founder of phrenology thought, nor Christian dualists, nor even Jeff Hawkins. In general I think this effect contributes to a lot of "over-debunking". We see way over-simplified, yet very loosely accurate, mid 20th century scientific models like the triune brain, "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny", the left-brain vs. right-brain, and the idea that differences in language contribute to differences in cognition; and then silly people take these models way too far and use them to justify dubious things; and then they become over-debunked to the point that speaking them aloud immediately ostracizes you as some outdated bigot; while the whole time the models themselves have been reasonably OK high-level starting points for discussion that obviously need revision for any lower-level details. > The truth is, neglected sub-regions such as the "lizard" cerebellum actually contain the vast majority of neurons, have been shown to have evolved disproportionately larger within early hominins [2], and are theorized to be equally involved in abstract cognition as in bodily manipulation. The relative number of neurons is not evidence for or against the model, nor the fact that they were larger in early hominins. Showing their involvement in abstract cognition is more interesting, but that's only evidence against the triune brain if you make the exact same mistake that you're criticizing, which is assuming that "abstract cognition" is some high-level uniquely human (or primate) trait. If that exact "abstract cognition" also exists in reptiles and birds (and it appears to), then the fact that the cerebellum contributes to that cognition is not evidence against Triune Brain.
- RugnirViking 3y ago
  > We see way over-simplified, yet very loosely accurate, mid 20th century scientific models like the... I think its important for people to also spread the idea that "this is known to not be correct". Bad mental models continue to proliferate for generations (bad here not being a value judgement but rather of their known incorrectness and lack of predictive power). It's like when you tell people that the alpha/beta dynamic amongst wolves came from one flawed study that has not been replicated and shown to be false many many years ago now. Same with "learning styles" research. Its difficult to approach the subject in a way that doesn't cause people to get defensive sometimes - they like the simplistic model which may once have been a fine point for a beginner but they got stuck in it and it can impair their growth and understanding. It's fine for a layperson to walk around believing whatever they like - its likely closer to the truth than whatever they might otherwise have thought, or at least got them thinking. It becomes a problem when people actually base decisions off these things.

mistermann 3y ago

> They don’t understand how models of the world work. Of course it’s not ideal but it’s a useful framework for understanding things. Based on the rather casual way the author is using language in this piece, I'd bet that the researchers forgot that what they are describing are (nested) model(s) of reality...or that that level of precision is "pedantic" (the consequence being the confusion in this comment section).