3 ms·

I had a similar reaction, although I cannot blame the crew for following orders. It does seem to change the nuance of the meaning of the signatures, though.

perihelions 3y ago
They're auctioning the signatures of the pilots as war memorabilia. I think that part's beyond any defense. Even if you kill someone for a legitimate reason (I'm side-stepping that), it's not moral to glorify the killing, and monetize the killing, in this way. It's just ghoulish!
- netsharc 3y ago
  Reminds me of meeting a girl whose last name is associated with executioners (axe-wielding ones) in her home country (like Smiths were blacksmiths)... she was not enthusiastic about it. I also feel the same, owning a book with Oppenheimer's and Einstein's signatures in it would be cool, but the Enola Gay bombers? No thanks. I suppose it's the distance, the same girl above, if she was associated with the ruler that ordered the execution instead of the actual executioner, would probably not be that ashamed of the last name.
- jedberg 3y ago
  The Holocaust museum has pieces with Hitler's signature that someone had to buy and donate. They are still important historical pieces. The money is for the historical significance, not glorification of the act.
  - perihelions 3y ago
    - "The Holocaust museum has pieces with Hitler's signature that someone had to buy and donate. They are still important historical pieces." Then, would you approve of someone auctioning Hitler signatures to private collectors, like we're seeing here? That would be a serious crime in many countries. The context matters here, and I'm not impressed that the context of this auction is a respectful and sober one—that they can hide behind "for historical purposes". E.g. - "among these are 14 scientists awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics or Chemistry for their monumental achievements, as well as pioneering nuclear researchers, military personnel, and Manhattan Project organizers." - "This remarkable compendium of autographs of the scientists and military men that played a role in the development of the bomb is an absolutely one-of-a-kind piece—an irreplaceable relic of the most momentous development of the 20th century." This plainly glorifies the nuclear bombings. I don't agree with your comparing this auction to Holocaust museum exhibits. They don't look similar.
mikewarot 3y ago
You can blame people for "just following orders", if they were unlawful. That was the point of the Nuremburg trials[1]. Here's the some of the evidence used in those trials.[2] Had the bombs not been used, it was estimated that there would have been a million soldiers wounded, and who knows how many civilians. Based on the information available to them, the crew of the Enola Gay had no reason to believe their orders unlawful. "During World War II, 1,506,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured, many in anticipation of the estimated casualties resulting from the planned Allied invasion of Japan. By the end of the war, even accounting for medals lost, stolen, or wasted, nearly 500,000 remained." [3] [1] https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/topics/nuremberg-trials https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/topics/nuremberg-trial... [2] https://www.c-span.org/video/?400657-1/nazi-concentration-prison-camps https://www.c-span.org/video/?400657-1/nazi-concentration-pr... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Heart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Heart
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  This debate comes up again and again, but basically, that's a false dichotomy. The bombs could and should have been used in many other ways, not only as a surprise attack on a civilian population center, which left so few surviving witnesses that the Japanese leadership had little idea what even happened. If the goal is to force a surrender as quickly as possible, you send plenty of advance notice, invite official witnesses, say "observe, we're about to demonstrate how a single airplane can blow up an unpopulated island of your choice; consider the terms of your surrender in the meantime. If we don't hear back from you, the next one strikes a city of our choice." Or something to that extent. Of course, those kinds of decisions are way above the pay-grade of a bomber crew. So again, I certainly don't fault them. But it also feels kind of weird to treat them like celebrities.
  - jacobsenscott 3y ago
    The problem with that is you would be telling Japan where your bomber would be and at what time. So they would just thank you for the heads up and shoot it down.

perihelions 3y ago

They're auctioning the signatures of the pilots as war memorabilia. I think that part's beyond any defense. Even if you kill someone for a legitimate reason (I'm side-stepping that), it's not moral to glorify the killing, and monetize the killing, in this way. It's just ghoulish!

netsharc 3y ago
Reminds me of meeting a girl whose last name is associated with executioners (axe-wielding ones) in her home country (like Smiths were blacksmiths)... she was not enthusiastic about it. I also feel the same, owning a book with Oppenheimer's and Einstein's signatures in it would be cool, but the Enola Gay bombers? No thanks. I suppose it's the distance, the same girl above, if she was associated with the ruler that ordered the execution instead of the actual executioner, would probably not be that ashamed of the last name.
jedberg 3y ago
The Holocaust museum has pieces with Hitler's signature that someone had to buy and donate. They are still important historical pieces. The money is for the historical significance, not glorification of the act.
- perihelions 3y ago
  - "The Holocaust museum has pieces with Hitler's signature that someone had to buy and donate. They are still important historical pieces." Then, would you approve of someone auctioning Hitler signatures to private collectors, like we're seeing here? That would be a serious crime in many countries. The context matters here, and I'm not impressed that the context of this auction is a respectful and sober one—that they can hide behind "for historical purposes". E.g. - "among these are 14 scientists awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics or Chemistry for their monumental achievements, as well as pioneering nuclear researchers, military personnel, and Manhattan Project organizers." - "This remarkable compendium of autographs of the scientists and military men that played a role in the development of the bomb is an absolutely one-of-a-kind piece—an irreplaceable relic of the most momentous development of the 20th century." This plainly glorifies the nuclear bombings. I don't agree with your comparing this auction to Holocaust museum exhibits. They don't look similar.

mikewarot 3y ago

You can blame people for "just following orders", if they were unlawful. That was the point of the Nuremburg trials[1]. Here's the some of the evidence used in those trials.[2] Had the bombs not been used, it was estimated that there would have been a million soldiers wounded, and who knows how many civilians. Based on the information available to them, the crew of the Enola Gay had no reason to believe their orders unlawful. "During World War II, 1,506,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured, many in anticipation of the estimated casualties resulting from the planned Allied invasion of Japan. By the end of the war, even accounting for medals lost, stolen, or wasted, nearly 500,000 remained." [3] [1] https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/topics/nuremberg-trials https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/topics/nuremberg-trial... [2] https://www.c-span.org/video/?400657-1/nazi-concentration-prison-camps https://www.c-span.org/video/?400657-1/nazi-concentration-pr... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Heart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Heart

mitthrowaway2 3y ago
This debate comes up again and again, but basically, that's a false dichotomy. The bombs could and should have been used in many other ways, not only as a surprise attack on a civilian population center, which left so few surviving witnesses that the Japanese leadership had little idea what even happened. If the goal is to force a surrender as quickly as possible, you send plenty of advance notice, invite official witnesses, say "observe, we're about to demonstrate how a single airplane can blow up an unpopulated island of your choice; consider the terms of your surrender in the meantime. If we don't hear back from you, the next one strikes a city of our choice." Or something to that extent. Of course, those kinds of decisions are way above the pay-grade of a bomber crew. So again, I certainly don't fault them. But it also feels kind of weird to treat them like celebrities.
- jacobsenscott 3y ago
  The problem with that is you would be telling Japan where your bomber would be and at what time. So they would just thank you for the heads up and shoot it down.