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This project seems to implicitly assume that a formally specified code of laws, where statutes can be interpreted largely mechanistically, is a good thing (and

by p-e-w 3y ago

This project seems to implicitly assume that a formally specified code of laws, where statutes can be interpreted largely mechanistically, is a good thing (and by extension, that the existing system of human interpreters with discretion and margins of error is a problem to be overcome). I don't disagree with this assumption outright, but it's certainly not obvious to me that it is correct, and the authors appear to present no arguments supporting the same.

steego 3y ago
I suspect the motivation of this project is a lot more practical than what you’re projecting onto it, and I suspect you might be discounting how often law is transformed into code that runs on state IT systems. As someone who is familiar with the process of turning statutes into code, I can appreciate what this project endeavors to do, even if the value is limited to providing clarification for software developers.
- wiz21c 3y ago
  It is hugely useful. I worked on implementation of law in code for 10 years and the big problem is this: there's a constant communication between software devs and law poeple. For exmaple "did you code this like that ?", "why did the system did that ?", "if I code this way, does it reflect the law precisely ?". You have to constantly trnaslate from the code base to the language of lawyers and vice versa. Doing that with regular code is no good: regular code ends up mixing law code and technical code. Making a clear separation with a dedicated language is a big plus.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
anon291 3y ago
Some laws, like tax bracket computation probably are fine but most laws should not be codified like this in my opinion
- pgeorgi 3y ago
  The French have a programming language for tax related work: https://github.com/MLanguage/mlang https://github.com/MLanguage/mlang
roel_v 3y ago
It fits quite will within French legal tradition. Remember that it was Montesquieu himself who said 'le juge n'est que la bouche de la loi'. When I was working on my law degree, I (being a programmer) was quite interested in this field, and (although my French wasn't/isn't great, so I didn't get to go as deep as I would have liked) I found a large community of such legalistic work in French speaking parts of the world. The professor at my university who was into this sort of stuff also seemed to lean towards that sphere of influence.
rendaw 3y ago
This seems obvious to me and seems something that law already strives to: you end up with very precise law regardless via case law, but with a high legal cost to reach that point. At the very least, it's not something I'd expect to be on Catala's homepage. I think this is closely related to rule of law too. Per https://www.britannica.com/topic/rule-of-law https://www.britannica.com/topic/rule-of-law > In particular, laws should be open and clear, general in form, universal in application, and knowable to all.... The law should... comprise determinate requirements that people can consult before acting, and legal obligations should not be retroactively established. What are the benefits of ambiguous laws?
- jsty 3y ago
  > What are the benefits of ambiguous laws? That they can deal with the massive amounts of ambiguity & blurred lines / grey areas the world has to offer. Too many of our everyday concepts can’t be expressed rigorously for a formal encoding & determinate decision process - a famous example being obscenity’s famed “I know it when I see it” definition - and many are highly context dependent.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago
  Laws very often look for intent of actions as well as the actions themselves. And they are ambiguous: "beyond reasonable doubt" is what, as a percentage, in your view?
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "What are the benefits of ambiguous laws? " Freedom and flexibility. Reality is infinitely complex, trying to encode real world problems 100% accurate into code can only work by rounding a lot, with the result of oversimplification with the result of lots of "unjust" rulings, when you do not take the intent of the law into account, but only the words. We have this problem already (a lot) many things that seem very wrong but are legal by the letters of the law. (Mobsters being released because of formalities for example, even though everyone knee they were guilty)
  - brnt 3y ago

by p-e-w 3y ago

steego 3y ago

I suspect the motivation of this project is a lot more practical than what you’re projecting onto it, and I suspect you might be discounting how often law is transformed into code that runs on state IT systems. As someone who is familiar with the process of turning statutes into code, I can appreciate what this project endeavors to do, even if the value is limited to providing clarification for software developers.

wiz21c 3y ago
It is hugely useful. I worked on implementation of law in code for 10 years and the big problem is this: there's a constant communication between software devs and law poeple. For exmaple "did you code this like that ?", "why did the system did that ?", "if I code this way, does it reflect the law precisely ?". You have to constantly trnaslate from the code base to the language of lawyers and vice versa. Doing that with regular code is no good: regular code ends up mixing law code and technical code. Making a clear separation with a dedicated language is a big plus.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

anon291 3y ago

Some laws, like tax bracket computation probably are fine but most laws should not be codified like this in my opinion

pgeorgi 3y ago
The French have a programming language for tax related work: https://github.com/MLanguage/mlang https://github.com/MLanguage/mlang

roel_v 3y ago

It fits quite will within French legal tradition. Remember that it was Montesquieu himself who said 'le juge n'est que la bouche de la loi'. When I was working on my law degree, I (being a programmer) was quite interested in this field, and (although my French wasn't/isn't great, so I didn't get to go as deep as I would have liked) I found a large community of such legalistic work in French speaking parts of the world. The professor at my university who was into this sort of stuff also seemed to lean towards that sphere of influence.

rendaw 3y ago

This seems obvious to me and seems something that law already strives to: you end up with very precise law regardless via case law, but with a high legal cost to reach that point. At the very least, it's not something I'd expect to be on Catala's homepage. I think this is closely related to rule of law too. Per https://www.britannica.com/topic/rule-of-law https://www.britannica.com/topic/rule-of-law > In particular, laws should be open and clear, general in form, universal in application, and knowable to all.... The law should... comprise determinate requirements that people can consult before acting, and legal obligations should not be retroactively established. What are the benefits of ambiguous laws?

jsty 3y ago
> What are the benefits of ambiguous laws? That they can deal with the massive amounts of ambiguity & blurred lines / grey areas the world has to offer. Too many of our everyday concepts can’t be expressed rigorously for a formal encoding & determinate decision process - a famous example being obscenity’s famed “I know it when I see it” definition - and many are highly context dependent.
_a_a_a_ 3y ago
Laws very often look for intent of actions as well as the actions themselves. And they are ambiguous: "beyond reasonable doubt" is what, as a percentage, in your view?
hutzlibu 3y ago
"What are the benefits of ambiguous laws? " Freedom and flexibility. Reality is infinitely complex, trying to encode real world problems 100% accurate into code can only work by rounding a lot, with the result of oversimplification with the result of lots of "unjust" rulings, when you do not take the intent of the law into account, but only the words. We have this problem already (a lot) many things that seem very wrong but are legal by the letters of the law. (Mobsters being released because of formalities for example, even though everyone knee they were guilty)
- brnt 3y ago