4 ms·

I think the paper is purely political. Alcohol causes 140k deaths per year, and if there were any scientific goal here they would have included alcohol before i

by jprete 3y ago

I think the paper is purely political. Alcohol causes 140k deaths per year, and if there were any scientific goal here they would have included alcohol before including firearms.

XorNot 3y ago
Alcohol notably tends to quietly kill only yourself. Smoking affects everyone around you, firearms too. Alcohol related non-drinker fatalities would be the relevant measure (and still too many, since it's going to be drink driving largely).
- injb 3y ago
  I don't have proof of this but I have a hard time believing that passive smoking kills anywhere near as many people as the behaviour of drunk people.
- catiopatio 3y ago
  That’s not true for firearms. More people die from falling off ladders than die in mass shootings.
  - XorNot 3y ago
    And if mass shootings were the only deaths that ever occurred from firearms then they'd be much less of a problem...[1,2] (there were >20,000 gun homicides in 2021, versus about 300 deaths from falling off ladders. There have been 351 mass shootings so far in the US [3]) [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-... [2] https://www.lockjawladdergrip.com/blog/ladder-safety-usa-2021 https://www.lockjawladdergrip.com/blog/ladder-safety-usa-202... [3] https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-shows/story?id=96609874 https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - catiopatio 3y ago
      If you dishonestly expand the definition of a word, you can create any statistic you want. Meanwhile, roughly as many people are killed in automobile accidents as there are gun deaths (of any kind, including suicide) every year. Statistically, you likely don’t know a single person killed by a gun or a car. I absolutely do not. Now, heart disease? Statistically you’re unlikely not to know someone who died from it. In reality, you’re not going to be a random victim of gun violence. Gun homicides primarily consist of internecine violence between criminal elements who primarily use handguns. Finally, there’s been a large rise in gun homicides over the last few years coinciding with a large rise in violent crime in general. Solve the crime issue, you solve the gun homicides.
      - XorNot 3y ago
        Dishonest is your original assertion: that mass shootings must be the only type of gun violence in America (implicit by your comparison, rather then referring to any actual statistics). And then you do it again: "what about automobile accidents?" Well that's a good question! Except (1) a great deal of effort is spent on reducing them, and (2) there are less drunk-driving related crashes then gun homicides in the US[1] - 13,384 in 2021. And now you're onto just standard whataboutism about everything else. Maybe all causes of death are serious! Maybe one of these causes though has not only a historic lack of attention, but has been the unique recipient of legislation specifically designed to prevent the CDC even looking into it![2] Because of everything you've listed, you know what's unique? No one is doing anything about gun-related death or injuries. Regulations are actively rolled back, and people like you work to shutdown any possible discussion of the problem. Literally no one is stopping you talking about cars, or heart disease, yet I seriously doubt you'd be bothering to "whatabout" those in any of the numerous studies which get posted. [1] https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment
        3y ago
- noduerme 3y ago
  Alcohol abuse affects people around you, as does abuse of any drug. Drunk driving kills more people than secondhand smoke. And alcohol has a multiplicative effect on violence and other forms of substance abuse as well. Tobacco, smoked outside, is a minor pollutant no worse to people nearby than the SUVs driving by on the street, and certainly not as bad as what's in most Americans' well water or fast food packaging.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  Nah. alcohol correlates heavily, like HEAVILY, for domestic abuse, rape, murder, assault, industrial accidents, and car-related fatalities. nothin quiet about it. I can walk away from second hand smoke, but I can't just shrug off a drunk driver t-boning me.
noduerme 3y ago
Not to mention obesity, which overlaps nicely with county maps of tobacco use, firearms ownership, alcohol abuse, unemployment, abortion bans, and places that used to own slaves. Still, I'd say calling a color-coded overlay of those things "political" is actually too kind. To me this reads visually as a weak attempt to get some viral traction for posting something like those covid infection / vaccination maps, which wealthy city-dwellers clucked over while reveling in the schadenfreude of The Redneck getting his Just Desserts. It's not political, so much as a kind of snuff porn indulged in by certain people. Nor has it lost its paternalistic "public health" overtones in this remix. [edit] don't get me wrong, I'm all for bringing the backwards South into the 21st Century and putting an end to its reactionary BS that has no place in a modern democracy. My point is that shaming them has no effect whatsoever; it's just a sop to prop up the sense of superiority that's unhelpfully been cultivated by coastal elites. [edit 2] I was a middle child.

by jprete 3y ago

I think the paper is purely political. Alcohol causes 140k deaths per year, and if there were any scientific goal here they would have included alcohol before including firearms.

XorNot 3y ago

Alcohol notably tends to quietly kill only yourself. Smoking affects everyone around you, firearms too. Alcohol related non-drinker fatalities would be the relevant measure (and still too many, since it's going to be drink driving largely).

injb 3y ago
I don't have proof of this but I have a hard time believing that passive smoking kills anywhere near as many people as the behaviour of drunk people.
catiopatio 3y ago
That’s not true for firearms. More people die from falling off ladders than die in mass shootings.
- XorNot 3y ago
  And if mass shootings were the only deaths that ever occurred from firearms then they'd be much less of a problem...[1,2] (there were >20,000 gun homicides in 2021, versus about 300 deaths from falling off ladders. There have been 351 mass shootings so far in the US [3]) [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-... [2] https://www.lockjawladdergrip.com/blog/ladder-safety-usa-2021 https://www.lockjawladdergrip.com/blog/ladder-safety-usa-202... [3] https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-shows/story?id=96609874 https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - catiopatio 3y ago
    If you dishonestly expand the definition of a word, you can create any statistic you want. Meanwhile, roughly as many people are killed in automobile accidents as there are gun deaths (of any kind, including suicide) every year. Statistically, you likely don’t know a single person killed by a gun or a car. I absolutely do not. Now, heart disease? Statistically you’re unlikely not to know someone who died from it. In reality, you’re not going to be a random victim of gun violence. Gun homicides primarily consist of internecine violence between criminal elements who primarily use handguns. Finally, there’s been a large rise in gun homicides over the last few years coinciding with a large rise in violent crime in general. Solve the crime issue, you solve the gun homicides.
    - XorNot 3y ago
      Dishonest is your original assertion: that mass shootings must be the only type of gun violence in America (implicit by your comparison, rather then referring to any actual statistics). And then you do it again: "what about automobile accidents?" Well that's a good question! Except (1) a great deal of effort is spent on reducing them, and (2) there are less drunk-driving related crashes then gun homicides in the US[1] - 13,384 in 2021. And now you're onto just standard whataboutism about everything else. Maybe all causes of death are serious! Maybe one of these causes though has not only a historic lack of attention, but has been the unique recipient of legislation specifically designed to prevent the CDC even looking into it![2] Because of everything you've listed, you know what's unique? No one is doing anything about gun-related death or injuries. Regulations are actively rolled back, and people like you work to shutdown any possible discussion of the problem. Literally no one is stopping you talking about cars, or heart disease, yet I seriously doubt you'd be bothering to "whatabout" those in any of the numerous studies which get posted. [1] https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment
      - 3y ago
noduerme 3y ago
Alcohol abuse affects people around you, as does abuse of any drug. Drunk driving kills more people than secondhand smoke. And alcohol has a multiplicative effect on violence and other forms of substance abuse as well. Tobacco, smoked outside, is a minor pollutant no worse to people nearby than the SUVs driving by on the street, and certainly not as bad as what's in most Americans' well water or fast food packaging.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
Nah. alcohol correlates heavily, like HEAVILY, for domestic abuse, rape, murder, assault, industrial accidents, and car-related fatalities. nothin quiet about it. I can walk away from second hand smoke, but I can't just shrug off a drunk driver t-boning me.

noduerme 3y ago

Not to mention obesity, which overlaps nicely with county maps of tobacco use, firearms ownership, alcohol abuse, unemployment, abortion bans, and places that used to own slaves. Still, I'd say calling a color-coded overlay of those things "political" is actually too kind. To me this reads visually as a weak attempt to get some viral traction for posting something like those covid infection / vaccination maps, which wealthy city-dwellers clucked over while reveling in the schadenfreude of The Redneck getting his Just Desserts. It's not political, so much as a kind of snuff porn indulged in by certain people. Nor has it lost its paternalistic "public health" overtones in this remix. [edit] don't get me wrong, I'm all for bringing the backwards South into the 21st Century and putting an end to its reactionary BS that has no place in a modern democracy. My point is that shaming them has no effect whatsoever; it's just a sop to prop up the sense of superiority that's unhelpfully been cultivated by coastal elites. [edit 2] I was a middle child.