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Sort of interesting, but the whole setup is oddly misleading: "Smoking and firearms are among the leading causes of avoidable premature death in the United Sta

Sort of interesting, but the whole setup is oddly misleading: "Smoking and firearms are among the leading causes of avoidable premature death in the United States" The statement is true for smoking but it takes some work to make it true for firearms. And then it describes tobacco and firearms as "both are legal yet lethal" - it borders on nonsensical to pair them that way (I guess possessing both can be legal, but it's worded to imply that the use of both, in the ways that resulted in death, is legal). I'd love to see fewer firearm deaths, but it just seems odd to try and link a really high cause of deaths with one that is an order of magnitude smaller, while skipping over others that are very preventable causes of death. You are, for example, many times more likely to die from poor diet than from being shot. I mean, using their framing, automobiles are "legal yet lethal" and auto deaths are the cause of about as many deaths as firearm deaths - and that includes suicide (i.e. intentional) deaths.

scotty79 3y ago
There's another quality that allows to group cigarettes and guns together. They are both completely optional lifestyle choice. While cars and diet might be way harder to opt out given how cars are needed to get to work and stores and the most unhealthy diet is the cheapest and fastest one.
- BaculumMeumEst 3y ago
  Do you also consider living in an area with high rate of violent crime to be a lifestyle choice?
  - scotty79 3y ago
    In nearly all cases, no.
- conductr 3y ago
  Even “optional” gets a little fuzzy when all these things are likely to be a cultural phenomenon; as in, influenced by your parents/family. It’s like saying that Christianity continues to be the most popular choice of religion in the US. Sure it’s optional, but there’s a bit of inertia involved.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    There's inertia in everything.
- dbrueck 3y ago
  > They are both completely optional lifestyle choice. Kind of like alcohol, right? (which has nearly 4x the annual deaths vs firearms)
  - scotty79 3y ago
    Yes. Should be included in the group as well.
- dudul 3y ago
  Don't they count fatalities due to assault? Is it optional to live in an area with high crime?
- chmod600 3y ago
  There's always some way to group things together, but I find it unhelpful in this case. Even grouping all firearm deaths together is almost always unhelpful. Ordinary violent crime with firearms is very different from a school shooting is very different from suicide by firearm. Then grouping firearm deaths together with a highly addictive and slow-killing vice like cigarettes just adds to the confusion.
jprete 3y ago
I think the paper is purely political. Alcohol causes 140k deaths per year, and if there were any scientific goal here they would have included alcohol before including firearms.
- XorNot 3y ago
  Alcohol notably tends to quietly kill only yourself. Smoking affects everyone around you, firearms too. Alcohol related non-drinker fatalities would be the relevant measure (and still too many, since it's going to be drink driving largely).
  - injb 3y ago
    I don't have proof of this but I have a hard time believing that passive smoking kills anywhere near as many people as the behaviour of drunk people.
  - catiopatio 3y ago
    That’s not true for firearms. More people die from falling off ladders than die in mass shootings.
    - XorNot 3y ago
      And if mass shootings were the only deaths that ever occurred from firearms then they'd be much less of a problem...[1,2] (there were >20,000 gun homicides in 2021, versus about 300 deaths from falling off ladders. There have been 351 mass shootings so far in the US [3]) [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-... [2] https://www.lockjawladdergrip.com/blog/ladder-safety-usa-2021 https://www.lockjawladdergrip.com/blog/ladder-safety-usa-202... [3] https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-shows/story?id=96609874 https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-...
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
dehrmann 3y ago
> it borders on nonsensical to pair them that way While I agree, the one government tasks one law enforcement agency (ATF) with managing them.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  Then we ought to include alcohol related deaths. And explosives related deaths especially.
- dbrueck 3y ago
  I think that's true, at least officially, but IIRC the ATF came about in the 1800s as part of the Treasury Department, i.e. "managing" those things in the sense of taxation/revenue first more than policing, the latter now belonging at least as much to the DEA and FBI maybe? I might be misremembering though. :)

scotty79 3y ago

There's another quality that allows to group cigarettes and guns together. They are both completely optional lifestyle choice. While cars and diet might be way harder to opt out given how cars are needed to get to work and stores and the most unhealthy diet is the cheapest and fastest one.

BaculumMeumEst 3y ago
Do you also consider living in an area with high rate of violent crime to be a lifestyle choice?
- scotty79 3y ago
  In nearly all cases, no.
conductr 3y ago
Even “optional” gets a little fuzzy when all these things are likely to be a cultural phenomenon; as in, influenced by your parents/family. It’s like saying that Christianity continues to be the most popular choice of religion in the US. Sure it’s optional, but there’s a bit of inertia involved.
- scotty79 3y ago
  There's inertia in everything.
dbrueck 3y ago
> They are both completely optional lifestyle choice. Kind of like alcohol, right? (which has nearly 4x the annual deaths vs firearms)
- scotty79 3y ago
  Yes. Should be included in the group as well.
dudul 3y ago
Don't they count fatalities due to assault? Is it optional to live in an area with high crime?
chmod600 3y ago
There's always some way to group things together, but I find it unhelpful in this case. Even grouping all firearm deaths together is almost always unhelpful. Ordinary violent crime with firearms is very different from a school shooting is very different from suicide by firearm. Then grouping firearm deaths together with a highly addictive and slow-killing vice like cigarettes just adds to the confusion.

jprete 3y ago

I think the paper is purely political. Alcohol causes 140k deaths per year, and if there were any scientific goal here they would have included alcohol before including firearms.

XorNot 3y ago
Alcohol notably tends to quietly kill only yourself. Smoking affects everyone around you, firearms too. Alcohol related non-drinker fatalities would be the relevant measure (and still too many, since it's going to be drink driving largely).
- injb 3y ago
  I don't have proof of this but I have a hard time believing that passive smoking kills anywhere near as many people as the behaviour of drunk people.
- catiopatio 3y ago
  That’s not true for firearms. More people die from falling off ladders than die in mass shootings.
  - XorNot 3y ago
    And if mass shootings were the only deaths that ever occurred from firearms then they'd be much less of a problem...[1,2] (there were >20,000 gun homicides in 2021, versus about 300 deaths from falling off ladders. There have been 351 mass shootings so far in the US [3]) [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-... [2] https://www.lockjawladdergrip.com/blog/ladder-safety-usa-2021 https://www.lockjawladdergrip.com/blog/ladder-safety-usa-202... [3] https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-shows/story?id=96609874 https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

dehrmann 3y ago

> it borders on nonsensical to pair them that way While I agree, the one government tasks one law enforcement agency (ATF) with managing them.

Waterluvian 3y ago
Then we ought to include alcohol related deaths. And explosives related deaths especially.
dbrueck 3y ago
I think that's true, at least officially, but IIRC the ATF came about in the 1800s as part of the Treasury Department, i.e. "managing" those things in the sense of taxation/revenue first more than policing, the latter now belonging at least as much to the DEA and FBI maybe? I might be misremembering though. :)