3 ms·

While my sympathy goes out to this person, I think this entire long, rambling, post could be condensed to a paragraph, or even a sentence: "It was a mistake for

While my sympathy goes out to this person, I think this entire long, rambling, post could be condensed to a paragraph, or even a sentence: "It was a mistake for me to use Indeed.com." If you want the job (of finding leads, and finding jobs) done right, hire a professional -- a recruiter who will charge a fee and is aligned towards you finding a job. Trying to cold-apply to every single job with a spray and pray approach is about as fruitful as cold calling every company you can to sell a product which may or may not apply to them. People hate middlemen until they use non-curated marketplaces with low quality or outright fake inventory. Then they begrudgingly realize why the middleman came into existence in the first place. Make peace with the middleman. Find the competent ones and build relationships with them. If you do that, you may not always have the best job in the world, but you won't be so woefully out of touch with reality that you write a blog post like this blaming something that's clearly a consequence of your own actions on the rest of the world.

PartiallyTyped 3y ago
Any recommendations on finding such middlemen?
- raincole 3y ago
  Another middleman who is "professional" at finding middlemen, of course.
  - jenscow 3y ago
    For a fee, I could get you in touch with a few people who are able to find middlemen
    - peteradio 3y ago
      Buy my book: "Finding middlemen for loosers"
  - yowlingcat 3y ago
    Very clever. But rather than optimizing towards cleverness, you could optimize towards directness and say "try them out and develop relationships over the long term." It's not as cute and clever of a phrase. It's unfortunate that the truth isn't cute and clever. Or maybe it's fortunate? You know, I actually think it's fortunate. I'll let the cynics who like being cute and clever keep their misfortune, and I'll keep my boring, ugly, successful reality.
- godzillabrennus 3y ago
  I have met the owner of https://www.findmyprofession.com/ https://www.findmyprofession.com/ a few times and he seems like a good guy but I haven’t used their services. They claim to be such a middleman.
- liquidpele 3y ago
  For IT, Mark yourself looking on LinkedIn, follow up with the swarm that messages you. Focus one ones that use the actual company email, followed by ones that at least say what company it’s for (many won’t say). Be upfront about salary/location requirements, but double check about them in the interviews.
ben_w 3y ago
> Trying to cold-apply to every single job with a spray and pray approach is about as fruitful as cold calling every company you can to sell a product which may or may not apply to them. This also describes most of the recruiters who contact me; occasionally they happen to be aligned with me job hunting, but usually they were in the "java == javascript" category, and time has only changed this into the "all mobile developers are interchangeable, so even though this is an android position and your last 13 years was iOS…" category.
- valdiorn 3y ago
  wtf? The recruiters in your area sound horrid. A lot of the recruiters in London and VERY on top of technology and know more than I do about current trends, languages and frameworks and exactly where to find people to fill every niche need their client companies have. To the point where they can follow the logic of "Client needs F# developers, F# is a functional programming language. I should look at former employees of companies X,Y, and Z because they use Clojure and OCaml, so those guys might have the necessary background - but I really need to sell it to them because they might be scared away by Microsoft and .NET".
  - darkmarmot 3y ago
    I have NEVER met a recruiter that seemed technically savvy at even the most minimal level. That's kind of astounding.
  - ta46645745 3y ago
    That's been my experience of ~20 years also, you don't always get to pick the recruiter. "Oh twenty years of Java, you'll be perfect for this Android position! Or this React one! Its more of a script role though!" Sounds unfortunately accurate.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    I could be wrong, but it seems like recruiters in Europe are "better" (I'm not sure, but maybe more strategic and less used-car-salesman; or the whole recruiting system is more structured). The ones in the US are mostly terrible.
gamepsys 3y ago
> While my sympathy goes out to this person, I think this entire long, rambling, post could be condensed to a paragraph, or even a sentence: "It was a mistake for me to use Indeed.com." I think there's more than one paragraph worth of value here, but I agree I had to skim through to make finding it tolerable. I specifically liked the sections talking directly about how Indeed operates, what their incentives are, and how companies and business interact with the website.
paulddraper 3y ago
(On the hiring side) Every year or so I cave and enlist a third-party recruiter. And every year or so I am reminded why I don't normally do that. The average quality of candidate recommendations is abysmal. So I return to LinkedIn + personal networks.
- yowlingcat 3y ago
  This is a prescient insight and you're getting at the core achilles heel of the traditional recruitment model. Because the compensation is based on a ratio of first year salary, the recruiters incentives actually align with the candidate and against the hiring manager. The recruiter, as with the candidate, can (and often will) profit from overpricing a low quality candidate with a hiring manager they view as gullible. But this creates a market for lemons where many of the savviest hiring managers hire through other means. That doesn't just disadvantage savvy hiring managers, it also disadvantages savvy candidates by eroding the ecosystem. The solution is to use curated networks -- and any recruiter worth their salt should be able to speak credibly to their own with strong references from strong candidates and especially strong hiring managers. After canvassing both and running some real life experimental tests, you'll be able to sift the wheat from the chaff. Ideally, you can do this over a span of multiple years across multiple roles so you've integrated this ecosystem into your own.
lopatin 3y ago
+1 for using a recruiter. I used to think that it was for scrubs. Then after trying one, so many interviews and doors opened, and then after I got a couple offers, they even negotiated a higher salary for me ( playing one offer against the other .. something that is necessary but I suck at)
- satellite2 3y ago
  Where do you even find a recruiter for hire? All those I contacted turned down offer to pay them stating they are paid by the recruiting company, which prevents our interest from being aligned.
  - lopatin 3y ago
    I contacted on LinkedIn by a recruiter, who I saw there were mutual acquaintances with and she even was my dads recruiter for a while. She did her work and now gets a percentage of my salary. That was an arrangement between her and my company, so I never paid her personally. The fact that she negotiated my salary up by 10k and the opportunities she made possible makes it a win win in my eyes. In other words, I don't think them being paid by their recruiting company makes it a conflict of interest. In fact, this gives them an incentive to negotiate the highest salary for you.

PartiallyTyped 3y ago

Any recommendations on finding such middlemen?

raincole 3y ago
Another middleman who is "professional" at finding middlemen, of course.
- jenscow 3y ago
  For a fee, I could get you in touch with a few people who are able to find middlemen
  - peteradio 3y ago
    Buy my book: "Finding middlemen for loosers"
- yowlingcat 3y ago
  Very clever. But rather than optimizing towards cleverness, you could optimize towards directness and say "try them out and develop relationships over the long term." It's not as cute and clever of a phrase. It's unfortunate that the truth isn't cute and clever. Or maybe it's fortunate? You know, I actually think it's fortunate. I'll let the cynics who like being cute and clever keep their misfortune, and I'll keep my boring, ugly, successful reality.
godzillabrennus 3y ago
I have met the owner of https://www.findmyprofession.com/ https://www.findmyprofession.com/ a few times and he seems like a good guy but I haven’t used their services. They claim to be such a middleman.
liquidpele 3y ago
For IT, Mark yourself looking on LinkedIn, follow up with the swarm that messages you. Focus one ones that use the actual company email, followed by ones that at least say what company it’s for (many won’t say). Be upfront about salary/location requirements, but double check about them in the interviews.

ben_w 3y ago

> Trying to cold-apply to every single job with a spray and pray approach is about as fruitful as cold calling every company you can to sell a product which may or may not apply to them. This also describes most of the recruiters who contact me; occasionally they happen to be aligned with me job hunting, but usually they were in the "java == javascript" category, and time has only changed this into the "all mobile developers are interchangeable, so even though this is an android position and your last 13 years was iOS…" category.

valdiorn 3y ago
wtf? The recruiters in your area sound horrid. A lot of the recruiters in London and VERY on top of technology and know more than I do about current trends, languages and frameworks and exactly where to find people to fill every niche need their client companies have. To the point where they can follow the logic of "Client needs F# developers, F# is a functional programming language. I should look at former employees of companies X,Y, and Z because they use Clojure and OCaml, so those guys might have the necessary background - but I really need to sell it to them because they might be scared away by Microsoft and .NET".
- darkmarmot 3y ago
  I have NEVER met a recruiter that seemed technically savvy at even the most minimal level. That's kind of astounding.
- ta46645745 3y ago
  That's been my experience of ~20 years also, you don't always get to pick the recruiter. "Oh twenty years of Java, you'll be perfect for this Android position! Or this React one! Its more of a script role though!" Sounds unfortunately accurate.
- giantg2 3y ago
  I could be wrong, but it seems like recruiters in Europe are "better" (I'm not sure, but maybe more strategic and less used-car-salesman; or the whole recruiting system is more structured). The ones in the US are mostly terrible.

gamepsys 3y ago

> While my sympathy goes out to this person, I think this entire long, rambling, post could be condensed to a paragraph, or even a sentence: "It was a mistake for me to use Indeed.com." I think there's more than one paragraph worth of value here, but I agree I had to skim through to make finding it tolerable. I specifically liked the sections talking directly about how Indeed operates, what their incentives are, and how companies and business interact with the website.

paulddraper 3y ago

(On the hiring side) Every year or so I cave and enlist a third-party recruiter. And every year or so I am reminded why I don't normally do that. The average quality of candidate recommendations is abysmal. So I return to LinkedIn + personal networks.

yowlingcat 3y ago
This is a prescient insight and you're getting at the core achilles heel of the traditional recruitment model. Because the compensation is based on a ratio of first year salary, the recruiters incentives actually align with the candidate and against the hiring manager. The recruiter, as with the candidate, can (and often will) profit from overpricing a low quality candidate with a hiring manager they view as gullible. But this creates a market for lemons where many of the savviest hiring managers hire through other means. That doesn't just disadvantage savvy hiring managers, it also disadvantages savvy candidates by eroding the ecosystem. The solution is to use curated networks -- and any recruiter worth their salt should be able to speak credibly to their own with strong references from strong candidates and especially strong hiring managers. After canvassing both and running some real life experimental tests, you'll be able to sift the wheat from the chaff. Ideally, you can do this over a span of multiple years across multiple roles so you've integrated this ecosystem into your own.

lopatin 3y ago

+1 for using a recruiter. I used to think that it was for scrubs. Then after trying one, so many interviews and doors opened, and then after I got a couple offers, they even negotiated a higher salary for me ( playing one offer against the other .. something that is necessary but I suck at)

satellite2 3y ago
Where do you even find a recruiter for hire? All those I contacted turned down offer to pay them stating they are paid by the recruiting company, which prevents our interest from being aligned.
- lopatin 3y ago
  I contacted on LinkedIn by a recruiter, who I saw there were mutual acquaintances with and she even was my dads recruiter for a while. She did her work and now gets a percentage of my salary. That was an arrangement between her and my company, so I never paid her personally. The fact that she negotiated my salary up by 10k and the opportunities she made possible makes it a win win in my eyes. In other words, I don't think them being paid by their recruiting company makes it a conflict of interest. In fact, this gives them an incentive to negotiate the highest salary for you.