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> The Ming ships are fantastically larger than anything the world has ever seen. Europe’s conquest of the global seas will begin in the 1490s, with the departur

> The Ming ships are fantastically larger than anything the world has ever seen. Europe’s conquest of the global seas will begin in the 1490s, with the departures of Vasco da Gama for India and Christopher Columbus for the Americas. All seven of their vessels would have fit easily on the 80,000-square-foot main deck of Zheng He’s flagship; the Europeans’ combined crews of 260 amount to less than 1 percent of Zheng He’s 30,000. I am not sure how much those numbers are to be trusted. For one thing, that is a huge leap in a single generation. Secondly, you are limited in how big you can make wooden ships (especially ocean going ships) because they have to be able to withstand the forces caused by waves lifting up one end of the ship. It wasn’t until steel ships that we had a material that was strong enough to be able to build these massive ships.

_a_a_a_ 3y ago
indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He#Disputes_of_historical_records_of_length https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He#Disputes_of_historica... covers this also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He#Treasure_Shipyard_excavation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He#Treasure_Shipyard_exc... both are an interesting read.
codersfocus 3y ago
So you think the unearthed rudder mentioned later in the article is fake?
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
  No. But scaling from the rudder size to a ship size is very inexact and involves a lot of assumptions.
- clarionbell 3y ago
  No. But rudder size doesn't linearly scale with the ship. Different types of vessels have different rudders, based on their hull and environment. And it wasn't a rudder, but a rudder pole. And size of the rudder it was supposed to be part of is under heavy dispute.
  - denton-scratch 3y ago
    The article discussed a rudder pole AND the remains of a large rudder.
motohagiography 3y ago
I'm wondering if this is a propaganda meme, as someone shared a related article with me within the last few weeks: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/zheng-he-china-explorer-ships/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/zheng-he-china-explore... > Both Marco Polo and the Moroccan explorer Ibn Batuta wrote of seeing huge seagoing vessels in their visits to the East. Some experts believe the treasure ships Zheng sailed were 400 feet long, or five times the size of Columbus’ ships, with 70,000 square-foot decks, though those numbers remain in debate. Taking it at face value, it appears some other force of history in their culture annihalated all evidence of an technologically advanced civilization and allowed the region to be exploited by the Portuguese and British without even a land invasion. If this mega ship tech existed in the region, what did the invaders have that prevented them from being repelled?
- hef19898 3y ago
  China went into isolation after Zheng Hes journies, going as far as burning the ships and declaring basically the coast a no-go zone. What little seafaring the Chinese did was illegal smuggling (a lot of others, e.g. Japanese, seafarers contributed there) and coastal fishing. Hence, when the Europeans showed up, with better armed ships, there was not much in opossing them on the seas. So the answer is, by the time the Europeans showed, those ships didn't exist anymore.
  - hnfong 3y ago
    This is slightly inaccurate. The "little seafaring the Chinese did" in illegal trade was actually a huge business, and these "pirates" ended up merging with the remnants of the last Ming court, and eventually drove away the Dutch forces settled in Formosa (aka Taiwan). See eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Zeelandia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Zeelandia Even during the Qing dynasty, "pirate" forces in the China coastal seas were huge, often commanding forces up to tens of thousands of men, and hundreds of war ships. The Chinese government in Beijing of course did not do much though, and basically repeatedly and actively sabotaged the sea trade in order to suppress the "pirates". (see eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Yi_Sao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Yi_Sao ) If the Chinese governments at the time did not see these "pirates" as an adversary but instead figured out profit sharing schemes like the European powers did with the "East India Companies", it's hard to say whether the Europeans would have dominated the Far East trade so easily.
smogcutter 3y ago
In addition, there’s 300 years of intense competition and iterative design between European ships of thee 1490s and the Santisima Trinidad(to name a big ship). Including embarrassments like the Vasa going straight to the bottom of the Baltic. So I’m curious where the design expertise for the massive treasure fleet came from? Earlier Chinese designs? Maybe Malay peoples?
- hnfong 3y ago
  Southern China has always had a lot of sea trade activity. You don't hear that often because Chinese history is mostly written by people from the North, where the political center is usually situated (i.e. Beijing).

_a_a_a_ 3y ago

indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He#Disputes_of_historical_records_of_length https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He#Disputes_of_historica... covers this also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He#Treasure_Shipyard_excavation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He#Treasure_Shipyard_exc... both are an interesting read.

codersfocus 3y ago

So you think the unearthed rudder mentioned later in the article is fake?

RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
No. But scaling from the rudder size to a ship size is very inexact and involves a lot of assumptions.
clarionbell 3y ago
No. But rudder size doesn't linearly scale with the ship. Different types of vessels have different rudders, based on their hull and environment. And it wasn't a rudder, but a rudder pole. And size of the rudder it was supposed to be part of is under heavy dispute.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  The article discussed a rudder pole AND the remains of a large rudder.

motohagiography 3y ago

I'm wondering if this is a propaganda meme, as someone shared a related article with me within the last few weeks: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/zheng-he-china-explorer-ships/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/zheng-he-china-explore... > Both Marco Polo and the Moroccan explorer Ibn Batuta wrote of seeing huge seagoing vessels in their visits to the East. Some experts believe the treasure ships Zheng sailed were 400 feet long, or five times the size of Columbus’ ships, with 70,000 square-foot decks, though those numbers remain in debate. Taking it at face value, it appears some other force of history in their culture annihalated all evidence of an technologically advanced civilization and allowed the region to be exploited by the Portuguese and British without even a land invasion. If this mega ship tech existed in the region, what did the invaders have that prevented them from being repelled?

hef19898 3y ago
China went into isolation after Zheng Hes journies, going as far as burning the ships and declaring basically the coast a no-go zone. What little seafaring the Chinese did was illegal smuggling (a lot of others, e.g. Japanese, seafarers contributed there) and coastal fishing. Hence, when the Europeans showed up, with better armed ships, there was not much in opossing them on the seas. So the answer is, by the time the Europeans showed, those ships didn't exist anymore.
- hnfong 3y ago
  This is slightly inaccurate. The "little seafaring the Chinese did" in illegal trade was actually a huge business, and these "pirates" ended up merging with the remnants of the last Ming court, and eventually drove away the Dutch forces settled in Formosa (aka Taiwan). See eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Zeelandia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Zeelandia Even during the Qing dynasty, "pirate" forces in the China coastal seas were huge, often commanding forces up to tens of thousands of men, and hundreds of war ships. The Chinese government in Beijing of course did not do much though, and basically repeatedly and actively sabotaged the sea trade in order to suppress the "pirates". (see eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Yi_Sao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Yi_Sao ) If the Chinese governments at the time did not see these "pirates" as an adversary but instead figured out profit sharing schemes like the European powers did with the "East India Companies", it's hard to say whether the Europeans would have dominated the Far East trade so easily.

smogcutter 3y ago

In addition, there’s 300 years of intense competition and iterative design between European ships of thee 1490s and the Santisima Trinidad(to name a big ship). Including embarrassments like the Vasa going straight to the bottom of the Baltic. So I’m curious where the design expertise for the massive treasure fleet came from? Earlier Chinese designs? Maybe Malay peoples?

hnfong 3y ago
Southern China has always had a lot of sea trade activity. You don't hear that often because Chinese history is mostly written by people from the North, where the political center is usually situated (i.e. Beijing).