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> We’re investing in RISC-V: Here’s why Coz we don't want to pay for licensing > and what’s in it for you The fun of porting and/or testing everything! Aren'

by ilyt 3y ago

> We’re investing in RISC-V: Here’s why Coz we don't want to pay for licensing > and what’s in it for you The fun of porting and/or testing everything! Aren't you happy ? Oh, and we will not upstream our drivers as usual so your devices will be landfill after 4 years as usual

wyldfire 3y ago
> Oh, and we will not upstream our drivers as usual so your devices will be landfill after 4 years as usual This is not genuine argument. Check the sources at kernel.org and you will see tons of Qualcomm drivers upstreamed by Qualcomm. Did Qualcomm do a bad job w upstreaming, for years? yes, they did. Are they improving? yes, IMO they are. disclaimer: Qualcomm employee.
- fooker 3y ago
  You start by saying it isn’t a genuine argument and then admit Qualcomm has been bad at this for a while..
  - wyldfire 3y ago
    "we will not" would suggest that any drivers that are present are reverse engineered which is not the case. "Linux 6.2 Expands Support For More Qualcomm Snapdragon SoCs, Apple M1 Pro/Ultra/Max" https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.2-Arm-SoC-Updates https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.2-Arm-SoC-Updates "Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 Patches Already Surfacing For The Linux Kernel" https://www.phoronix.com/news/Snapdragon-8-Gen-2-Linux https://www.phoronix.com/news/Snapdragon-8-Gen-2-Linux "Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 Sees Timely Support With The Mainline Linux 5.17 Kernel" https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-5.17-Arm https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-5.17-Arm
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      Wait, so can you actually install a Linux distribution or stock Android with a mainline kernel on any of these devices?
      - wyldfire 3y ago
        Distro? I dunno probably not without at least some tweaking at least to the DT. Stock android? Yes, perhaps. Some functionality from devices is provided via closed firmware blobs that you'll need too. I'm thinking of the modem or other DSPs at least. However I suppose that projects like LineageOS just harvest those from working phones? I know one developer at Qualcomm who uses Linux on their Snapdragon laptop.
        AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        The firmware blobs will be what people are objecting to, if they're specific to a kernel version. What you really want out of this is to be able to install updated kernels on the device without needing a corresponding firmware blob nobody has released.
        wyldfire 3y ago
        The firmware blobs execute on the peripherals that happen to be software programmable - not on the CPU (or "apps" CPU). And therefore they're not bound to a particular kernel. IMO the blobs aren't very objectionable while still not ideal. Would I prefer to have the source to software running on all the peripherals? Sure, I would. But once you're programming on the peripherals it narrows significantly the audience who's interested and capable at changing behavior or making fixes. I could be wrong but I think this is actually somewhat common.
    - genmud 3y ago
      Yea, but I think that is a response to google not allowing / strongly encouraging android kernel patches into mainline. This is a huge difference than the previous model where there were forked versions of the system tied to a kernel version. This talk is a great overview of where things are going... https://youtu.be/6O878RYYM18?si=nabScwXDTGQ4seCj https://youtu.be/6O878RYYM18?si=nabScwXDTGQ4seCj
Lord-Jobo 3y ago
Cynical but fair points. I'm a total ignoramus when it comes to this level of tech, but it does feel like Apple has been showing how important power efficiency is right now, and the de-bloating that risc-v offers, or potentially offers, seems very appealing in that regard. Of course, it could totally be overshadowed by simple bad developer habits even at the OS level. Like I said, im very ignorant in this area.
smoldesu 3y ago
So it's fair and fun to port everything to ARM when you pay licensing fees, but it's unfair and hard to do it on RISC-V hardware? > Oh, and we will not upstream our drivers as usual so your devices will be landfill after 4 years as usual C'mon, it won't be that similar to ARM.
snvzz 3y ago
>The fun of porting and/or testing everything! Aren't you happy? Then the ISA is an open standard... it only needs to be done once, and it doesn't matter who it is that gets it done.
wyldfire 3y ago
Why we ever left the PDP I'll never know.

by ilyt 3y ago

wyldfire 3y ago

> Oh, and we will not upstream our drivers as usual so your devices will be landfill after 4 years as usual This is not genuine argument. Check the sources at kernel.org and you will see tons of Qualcomm drivers upstreamed by Qualcomm. Did Qualcomm do a bad job w upstreaming, for years? yes, they did. Are they improving? yes, IMO they are. disclaimer: Qualcomm employee.

fooker 3y ago
You start by saying it isn’t a genuine argument and then admit Qualcomm has been bad at this for a while..
- wyldfire 3y ago
  "we will not" would suggest that any drivers that are present are reverse engineered which is not the case. "Linux 6.2 Expands Support For More Qualcomm Snapdragon SoCs, Apple M1 Pro/Ultra/Max" https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.2-Arm-SoC-Updates https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.2-Arm-SoC-Updates "Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 Patches Already Surfacing For The Linux Kernel" https://www.phoronix.com/news/Snapdragon-8-Gen-2-Linux https://www.phoronix.com/news/Snapdragon-8-Gen-2-Linux "Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 Sees Timely Support With The Mainline Linux 5.17 Kernel" https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-5.17-Arm https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-5.17-Arm
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Wait, so can you actually install a Linux distribution or stock Android with a mainline kernel on any of these devices?
    - wyldfire 3y ago
      Distro? I dunno probably not without at least some tweaking at least to the DT. Stock android? Yes, perhaps. Some functionality from devices is provided via closed firmware blobs that you'll need too. I'm thinking of the modem or other DSPs at least. However I suppose that projects like LineageOS just harvest those from working phones? I know one developer at Qualcomm who uses Linux on their Snapdragon laptop.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        The firmware blobs will be what people are objecting to, if they're specific to a kernel version. What you really want out of this is to be able to install updated kernels on the device without needing a corresponding firmware blob nobody has released.
        wyldfire 3y ago
        The firmware blobs execute on the peripherals that happen to be software programmable - not on the CPU (or "apps" CPU). And therefore they're not bound to a particular kernel. IMO the blobs aren't very objectionable while still not ideal. Would I prefer to have the source to software running on all the peripherals? Sure, I would. But once you're programming on the peripherals it narrows significantly the audience who's interested and capable at changing behavior or making fixes. I could be wrong but I think this is actually somewhat common.
  - genmud 3y ago
    Yea, but I think that is a response to google not allowing / strongly encouraging android kernel patches into mainline. This is a huge difference than the previous model where there were forked versions of the system tied to a kernel version. This talk is a great overview of where things are going... https://youtu.be/6O878RYYM18?si=nabScwXDTGQ4seCj https://youtu.be/6O878RYYM18?si=nabScwXDTGQ4seCj

Lord-Jobo 3y ago

Cynical but fair points. I'm a total ignoramus when it comes to this level of tech, but it does feel like Apple has been showing how important power efficiency is right now, and the de-bloating that risc-v offers, or potentially offers, seems very appealing in that regard. Of course, it could totally be overshadowed by simple bad developer habits even at the OS level. Like I said, im very ignorant in this area.

smoldesu 3y ago

So it's fair and fun to port everything to ARM when you pay licensing fees, but it's unfair and hard to do it on RISC-V hardware? > Oh, and we will not upstream our drivers as usual so your devices will be landfill after 4 years as usual C'mon, it won't be that similar to ARM.

snvzz 3y ago

>The fun of porting and/or testing everything! Aren't you happy? Then the ISA is an open standard... it only needs to be done once, and it doesn't matter who it is that gets it done.

wyldfire 3y ago

Why we ever left the PDP I'll never know.