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>On April 19, the DeKalb County Medical Examiner's office released an autopsy, which found at least 57 gunshot wounds on Paez Terán's body and ruled their death

by josu 3y ago

>On April 19, the DeKalb County Medical Examiner's office released an autopsy, which found at least 57 gunshot wounds on Paez Terán's body and ruled their death a homicide; the autopsy also found no evidence of gunshot residue on Paez Terán's hands.[7][15] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Manuel_Esteban_Paez_Ter%C3%A1n https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Manuel_Esteban_Pa... Aside from the cops' testimony there seems to be 0 evidence supporting that Tortuguita shot at them.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Another commenter posted a link that reported they did find gunshot residue: https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/autopsy-cop-city-protester-manuel-teran-death-gunshot-powder-residue.amp https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/autopsy-cop-city-protester-...
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I think it's worth noting that this report comes from the Georgia's GBI, i.e. the same people who are accused of killing the activist in question. The previous report comes from a (nominally) neutral source (the DeKalb County Medical Examiner's office). In other words: the accused are investigating themselves, and have produced a report that suggests that they were justified in killing a climate activist. I think that's a pattern we'd normally treat with extreme skepticism; it's unclear that GBI has earned an exception to that.
  - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
    Who should conduct this investigation then?
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      Depending on the investigation's ultimate scope, either the federal DOJ or an independent investigator's office. (It hopefully isn't controversial to say that, as a general principle, entities in positions of exceptional public trust or interest should not be tasked with enforcing or regulating themselves.)
      - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
        I’m not sure what an independent investigators office is, but assuming it’s a private firm would you not have the same criticism that it’s not a neutral third party and is biased towards whoever hired them? What is the role of a state level investigation bureau if not to investigate state-level issues involving state agencies?
        woodruffw 3y ago
        I meant something like Washington DC's OPC[1]. Note that these commissions are not themselves perfect; they're typically limited in authority to "recommendations," which the police (or DA) may still ignore. However, to answer the following (which isn't what I meant, but I think is interesting): > but assuming it’s a private firm would you not have the same criticism that it’s not a neutral third party and is biased towards whoever hired them? I think the answer to this is similar to the answer found in arbitration: arbitration is typically performed by a well-known firm, and that firm is obligated through contract to perform fair proceedings. In other words: there are civil penalties on the table if the independent party does not execute their job fairly. That being said, I think an unrelated but still governmental investigation arm would be sufficient here. > What is the role of a state level investigation bureau if not to investigate state-level issues involving state agencies? You can find the GBI's services listed here[2]. They have a lot of responsibilities, most of which aren't tied to investigation of local police. I think it'd even be fair to say that they aren't particularly equipped to investigate local forces. [1]: https://policecomplaints.dc.gov/ https://policecomplaints.dc.gov/ [2]: https://gbi.georgia.gov/services https://gbi.georgia.gov/services
  - jmvoodoo 3y ago
    Probably not the murderer? FBI, local jurisdiction, literally anyone would be a better choice than the institution accused of committing the crime.
    - c0pium 3y ago
      > local jurisdiction Good news then, the State DA recused and GBI is a different agency than the state police.
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    >Georgia's GBI, i.e. the same people who are accused of killing the activist in question. No; the Georgia State Patrol is the primary agency that was involved. It's a different agency.
Quillbert182 3y ago
Wikipedia seems to leave out that the state did a more thorough test and did find gun powder residue. https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/autopsy-cop-city-protester-manuel-teran-death-gunshot-powder-residue.amp https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/autopsy-cop-city-protester-...
- coldtea 3y ago
  "more thorough"
  - c0pium 3y ago
    Yes, more thorough. Using a chemical test to look for an often invisible substance is an obvious step to take. Conversely, visually looking for that same substance and then saying it wasn’t there when you don’t see it is laughable.
    - giantrobot 3y ago
      If I shot you 57 times you'd be lousy with gunpowder residue. Bullet holes and gunpowder residue. So trace amounts of gunpowder residue on a bullet riddled corpse is not in any way conclusive evidence they fired a gun.
      - c0pium 3y ago
        There is no evidence I’ve found to support that theory, can you cite a study that flying through the air at close to the speed of sound doesn’t brush GSR particles off the round?
        josu 3y ago
        Patterns of Gunshot Residue Gunshot residue (GSR) may be deposited by two mechanisms: (1) impact deposition from particles propelled by the force of the blast, and (2) fallout deposition of drifting particles that settle on a surface. Persons close to the blast, specifically the shooter, will likely have GSR from impact. Bystanders are likely to have GSR particles from fallout. Shooters are more likely to have a greater number of particles than bystanders, but not always. Settling of airborne GSR may take up to 10 minutes following firearm discharge. The depostion of GSR particles following initial firearm discharge is primary transfer. However, secondary transfer of these particles to other surfaces can occur from contact with the surfaces or persons on whom the particles have deposited, as with handshaking or contact with clothing. Movement of persons following the shooting, or even scene investigation by forensic scientists, may alter GSR distribution. Further tertiary or even quaternary transfer is possible. Law enforcement personnel may carry particles from prior shooting events. (Blakey et al, 2018) The amount and pattern of GSR deposited may vary by the gun used to fire the bullet. Most GSR emanates from the ejection port of a semiautomatic pistol. GSR is expelled from the gap between cylinder and frame of a revolver. There is greater particle number with revolvers than with automatic rifles. Particle numbers are greater with nonjacketed bullets, mainly due to an increase in particles composed of lead. A faster burning rate of propellant powder reduces the distance of GSR particles travelled. (Blakey et al, 2018) (Vachon and Martinez, 2019) GSR may be expelled from the firearm ahead of the bullet, along with the bullet, and following after the bullet. Though the amount of residue deposited tends to decrease with increasing range of fire, the actual deposits can be highly variable for ranges up to 20 cm.(Brown, Cauchi, et al, 1999) GSR has been reported to be found at distances from 6 to 18 meters forward of the shooter, and up to 6 meters laterally. However, climatic conditions significantly influence recovery rates for GSR. (Dalby et al, 2010) Use of atomic force microscopy (AFM) for detection of particle size in relation to range of fire has been described. (Mou, Lakadwar, and Rabalais, 2008) https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html
wl 3y ago
From [7]: 'While the official autopsy report states “gunpowder residue is not seen” on Teran’s hands, it is not conclusive because gunpowder is not always visible to the naked eye. A gunshot residue kit was performed, but those results have not been returned from the GBI Crime Lab, the medical examiner’s office told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.' Those results were later released. They were positive. I shoot handguns on a monthly basis. Anecdotally, I have to do a lot of shooting before I have visible residue on my hands.
WillPostForFood 3y ago
Nonsense! We are releasing a photo of the handgun that was in Manuel Esteban Paez Teran’s possession when a Georgia State Patrol trooper was shot on January 18 at the site of the future Atlanta Public Safety Training Center. The handgun is described as a Smith & Wesson M&P Shield 9mm. Forensic ballistic analysis has confirmed that the projectile recovered from the trooper’s wound matches Teran’s handgun. Other preliminary information released in this case is consistent with the investigation so far. https://gbi.georgia.gov/press-releases/2023-04-14/gbi-investigates-officer-involved-shooting-following-multi-agency https://gbi.georgia.gov/press-releases/2023-04-14/gbi-invest...
- DangitBobby 3y ago
  So they have a photo of a gun that was "in his possession" but not of him actually possessing or welding it, and also testimony about an autopsy where the lack of gunpowder on his hands indicates he didn't shoot it. Truly damning evidence, next we will see a picture of the car registered in his name that he could have used to run over puppies and children.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    They have records of him buying the gun. It was in his possession.
    - DangitBobby 3y ago
      Him having a gun is not evidence of him using one.
      - mcpackieh 3y ago
        That is correct, records of him buying the gun are not evidence of him using it. I was responding to this part of your comment "So they have a photo of a gun that was "in his possession" but not of him actually _possessing_ [...] Truly damning evidence" There's ample evidence that he possessed the gun, we don't need a photograph of literally everything to reasonably conclude things. The bullet they found in a cop's stomach matching the gun he owned is evidence that he used it, albeit not unimpeachable proof because matching bullets to guns is a matter you can reasonably question. Nevertheless, I think the sum of the evidence thus-far presented supports the narrative that he shot a cop then the cops turned him into swiss cheese, possibly with the man trying in vane to surrender while that was happening.

by josu 3y ago

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

Another commenter posted a link that reported they did find gunshot residue: https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/autopsy-cop-city-protester-manuel-teran-death-gunshot-powder-residue.amp https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/autopsy-cop-city-protester-...

woodruffw 3y ago
I think it's worth noting that this report comes from the Georgia's GBI, i.e. the same people who are accused of killing the activist in question. The previous report comes from a (nominally) neutral source (the DeKalb County Medical Examiner's office). In other words: the accused are investigating themselves, and have produced a report that suggests that they were justified in killing a climate activist. I think that's a pattern we'd normally treat with extreme skepticism; it's unclear that GBI has earned an exception to that.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  Who should conduct this investigation then?
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    Depending on the investigation's ultimate scope, either the federal DOJ or an independent investigator's office. (It hopefully isn't controversial to say that, as a general principle, entities in positions of exceptional public trust or interest should not be tasked with enforcing or regulating themselves.)
    - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
      I’m not sure what an independent investigators office is, but assuming it’s a private firm would you not have the same criticism that it’s not a neutral third party and is biased towards whoever hired them? What is the role of a state level investigation bureau if not to investigate state-level issues involving state agencies?
      - woodruffw 3y ago
        I meant something like Washington DC's OPC[1]. Note that these commissions are not themselves perfect; they're typically limited in authority to "recommendations," which the police (or DA) may still ignore. However, to answer the following (which isn't what I meant, but I think is interesting): > but assuming it’s a private firm would you not have the same criticism that it’s not a neutral third party and is biased towards whoever hired them? I think the answer to this is similar to the answer found in arbitration: arbitration is typically performed by a well-known firm, and that firm is obligated through contract to perform fair proceedings. In other words: there are civil penalties on the table if the independent party does not execute their job fairly. That being said, I think an unrelated but still governmental investigation arm would be sufficient here. > What is the role of a state level investigation bureau if not to investigate state-level issues involving state agencies? You can find the GBI's services listed here[2]. They have a lot of responsibilities, most of which aren't tied to investigation of local police. I think it'd even be fair to say that they aren't particularly equipped to investigate local forces. [1]: https://policecomplaints.dc.gov/ https://policecomplaints.dc.gov/ [2]: https://gbi.georgia.gov/services https://gbi.georgia.gov/services
- jmvoodoo 3y ago
  Probably not the murderer? FBI, local jurisdiction, literally anyone would be a better choice than the institution accused of committing the crime.
  - c0pium 3y ago
    > local jurisdiction Good news then, the State DA recused and GBI is a different agency than the state police.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  >Georgia's GBI, i.e. the same people who are accused of killing the activist in question. No; the Georgia State Patrol is the primary agency that was involved. It's a different agency.

Quillbert182 3y ago

Wikipedia seems to leave out that the state did a more thorough test and did find gun powder residue. https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/autopsy-cop-city-protester-manuel-teran-death-gunshot-powder-residue.amp https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/autopsy-cop-city-protester-...

coldtea 3y ago
"more thorough"
- c0pium 3y ago
  Yes, more thorough. Using a chemical test to look for an often invisible substance is an obvious step to take. Conversely, visually looking for that same substance and then saying it wasn’t there when you don’t see it is laughable.
  - giantrobot 3y ago
    If I shot you 57 times you'd be lousy with gunpowder residue. Bullet holes and gunpowder residue. So trace amounts of gunpowder residue on a bullet riddled corpse is not in any way conclusive evidence they fired a gun.
    - c0pium 3y ago
      There is no evidence I’ve found to support that theory, can you cite a study that flying through the air at close to the speed of sound doesn’t brush GSR particles off the round?
      - josu 3y ago
        Patterns of Gunshot Residue Gunshot residue (GSR) may be deposited by two mechanisms: (1) impact deposition from particles propelled by the force of the blast, and (2) fallout deposition of drifting particles that settle on a surface. Persons close to the blast, specifically the shooter, will likely have GSR from impact. Bystanders are likely to have GSR particles from fallout. Shooters are more likely to have a greater number of particles than bystanders, but not always. Settling of airborne GSR may take up to 10 minutes following firearm discharge. The depostion of GSR particles following initial firearm discharge is primary transfer. However, secondary transfer of these particles to other surfaces can occur from contact with the surfaces or persons on whom the particles have deposited, as with handshaking or contact with clothing. Movement of persons following the shooting, or even scene investigation by forensic scientists, may alter GSR distribution. Further tertiary or even quaternary transfer is possible. Law enforcement personnel may carry particles from prior shooting events. (Blakey et al, 2018) The amount and pattern of GSR deposited may vary by the gun used to fire the bullet. Most GSR emanates from the ejection port of a semiautomatic pistol. GSR is expelled from the gap between cylinder and frame of a revolver. There is greater particle number with revolvers than with automatic rifles. Particle numbers are greater with nonjacketed bullets, mainly due to an increase in particles composed of lead. A faster burning rate of propellant powder reduces the distance of GSR particles travelled. (Blakey et al, 2018) (Vachon and Martinez, 2019) GSR may be expelled from the firearm ahead of the bullet, along with the bullet, and following after the bullet. Though the amount of residue deposited tends to decrease with increasing range of fire, the actual deposits can be highly variable for ranges up to 20 cm.(Brown, Cauchi, et al, 1999) GSR has been reported to be found at distances from 6 to 18 meters forward of the shooter, and up to 6 meters laterally. However, climatic conditions significantly influence recovery rates for GSR. (Dalby et al, 2010) Use of atomic force microscopy (AFM) for detection of particle size in relation to range of fire has been described. (Mou, Lakadwar, and Rabalais, 2008) https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html

wl 3y ago

From [7]: 'While the official autopsy report states “gunpowder residue is not seen” on Teran’s hands, it is not conclusive because gunpowder is not always visible to the naked eye. A gunshot residue kit was performed, but those results have not been returned from the GBI Crime Lab, the medical examiner’s office told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.' Those results were later released. They were positive. I shoot handguns on a monthly basis. Anecdotally, I have to do a lot of shooting before I have visible residue on my hands.

WillPostForFood 3y ago

Nonsense! We are releasing a photo of the handgun that was in Manuel Esteban Paez Teran’s possession when a Georgia State Patrol trooper was shot on January 18 at the site of the future Atlanta Public Safety Training Center. The handgun is described as a Smith & Wesson M&P Shield 9mm. Forensic ballistic analysis has confirmed that the projectile recovered from the trooper’s wound matches Teran’s handgun. Other preliminary information released in this case is consistent with the investigation so far. https://gbi.georgia.gov/press-releases/2023-04-14/gbi-investigates-officer-involved-shooting-following-multi-agency https://gbi.georgia.gov/press-releases/2023-04-14/gbi-invest...

DangitBobby 3y ago
So they have a photo of a gun that was "in his possession" but not of him actually possessing or welding it, and also testimony about an autopsy where the lack of gunpowder on his hands indicates he didn't shoot it. Truly damning evidence, next we will see a picture of the car registered in his name that he could have used to run over puppies and children.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  They have records of him buying the gun. It was in his possession.
  - DangitBobby 3y ago
    Him having a gun is not evidence of him using one.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      That is correct, records of him buying the gun are not evidence of him using it. I was responding to this part of your comment "So they have a photo of a gun that was "in his possession" but not of him actually _possessing_ [...] Truly damning evidence" There's ample evidence that he possessed the gun, we don't need a photograph of literally everything to reasonably conclude things. The bullet they found in a cop's stomach matching the gun he owned is evidence that he used it, albeit not unimpeachable proof because matching bullets to guns is a matter you can reasonably question. Nevertheless, I think the sum of the evidence thus-far presented supports the narrative that he shot a cop then the cops turned him into swiss cheese, possibly with the man trying in vane to surrender while that was happening.