4 ms·

> Second, the russians had allmost nothing to gain from blowing it up. Well, they didn't gain much from shelling power plants in the winter but they did it any

> Second, the russians had allmost nothing to gain from blowing it up. Well, they didn't gain much from shelling power plants in the winter but they did it anyway. They wasted many missiles on it, some civilians died, but in the end the result gave them no significant advantage. Why did they do it? Well, because Putin still has the mentality of a street bully - if he can inflict suffering on someone who is weaker, he will, whether it makes sense or not.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
No need to even resort to personality attacks on Putin; the actions of Russian forces in Ukraine are clearly shaping up to be more of a state level attempt to undermine future potential for Ukraine than they are an attempt to "improve" Russia by taking territory, or "helping" Russian speakers in Ukrainian territory. Putin/Lavrov cannot afford for Ukraine to be a long term success, another East Slavic, ex-Soviet rival to their own regime and not under their domination. Mass minefields, constant artillery bombardment, destruction of civilian targets/infrastructure, confiscation of assets, children. The goal is not to win, but to ruin Ukraine and drain its resources and future prospects. "If we can't dominate it and control it and profit from it, then nobody else will.". The speaker of the Duma stated this explicitly last week: https://nitter.net/Gerashchenko_en/status/1702294350040809892 https://nitter.net/Gerashchenko_en/status/170229435004080989... They don't need to "win", they just need Ukraine to "lose." In the context of this kind of strategic/ideological position, the demolition of the dam -- even if accidental -- makes perfect sense.
- euroderf 3y ago
  > Putin/Lavrov cannot afford for Ukraine to be a long term success, another East Slavic rival to their own regime not under their domination. I think this is also some of the logic of the PRC w.r.t. Taiwan. Who in the PRC wants to concede that the Chinese diaspora is huge and that it can contain a multitude of sociopolitical systems ? Much as American states are the "laboratories of democracy".
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Yes, absolutely. I tend to think of it like this: we are not talking about a bipolar world which is "the-west" vs "not-the-west"; we are instead talking about two visions of modernism emerging out of the enlightenment and the development of modernity: one that emphasizes some democracy and chaotic diversity and another that emphasizes uniformity and control. (The market economy is perhaps parallel to this, both visions can accommodate a capitalist market system.) Multiparty, ethnic diversity, multicultural vs single-leader national chauvinism, etc. There are ideological proponents of either vision within both "east" and "west." But the crisis in Ukraine has erupted in such a way that it is effectively counterpoising one against the other. That is not to say that the ruling parties in Ukraine are in any way pro "ethnic diversity" and "democratic"; they are in large part old school national chauvinist and fairly corrupt. But in resisting singular Russian hegemony the Ukrainian people are in large part appealing to something far more anti-oppressive.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

No need to even resort to personality attacks on Putin; the actions of Russian forces in Ukraine are clearly shaping up to be more of a state level attempt to undermine future potential for Ukraine than they are an attempt to "improve" Russia by taking territory, or "helping" Russian speakers in Ukrainian territory. Putin/Lavrov cannot afford for Ukraine to be a long term success, another East Slavic, ex-Soviet rival to their own regime and not under their domination. Mass minefields, constant artillery bombardment, destruction of civilian targets/infrastructure, confiscation of assets, children. The goal is not to win, but to ruin Ukraine and drain its resources and future prospects. "If we can't dominate it and control it and profit from it, then nobody else will.". The speaker of the Duma stated this explicitly last week: https://nitter.net/Gerashchenko_en/status/1702294350040809892 https://nitter.net/Gerashchenko_en/status/170229435004080989... They don't need to "win", they just need Ukraine to "lose." In the context of this kind of strategic/ideological position, the demolition of the dam -- even if accidental -- makes perfect sense.

euroderf 3y ago
> Putin/Lavrov cannot afford for Ukraine to be a long term success, another East Slavic rival to their own regime not under their domination. I think this is also some of the logic of the PRC w.r.t. Taiwan. Who in the PRC wants to concede that the Chinese diaspora is huge and that it can contain a multitude of sociopolitical systems ? Much as American states are the "laboratories of democracy".
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Yes, absolutely. I tend to think of it like this: we are not talking about a bipolar world which is "the-west" vs "not-the-west"; we are instead talking about two visions of modernism emerging out of the enlightenment and the development of modernity: one that emphasizes some democracy and chaotic diversity and another that emphasizes uniformity and control. (The market economy is perhaps parallel to this, both visions can accommodate a capitalist market system.) Multiparty, ethnic diversity, multicultural vs single-leader national chauvinism, etc. There are ideological proponents of either vision within both "east" and "west." But the crisis in Ukraine has erupted in such a way that it is effectively counterpoising one against the other. That is not to say that the ruling parties in Ukraine are in any way pro "ethnic diversity" and "democratic"; they are in large part old school national chauvinist and fairly corrupt. But in resisting singular Russian hegemony the Ukrainian people are in large part appealing to something far more anti-oppressive.