4 ms·

So what do you say to the fact, that due to height differences, the east, under russian control(with no immediate threat of being conquered) was hit way harder?

So what do you say to the fact, that due to height differences, the east, under russian control(with no immediate threat of being conquered) was hit way harder? The nuclear plant, the water supply to crimea? As of russian position, they are russian motherland since last autumn. So no matter how fake the referendum was, from their point of view, they were hurting themself. But sure, it is a massive catastrophe for Ukraine, like the whole war is.

dralley 3y ago
I say that unless the fact that the Russian side was lower resulted in meaningful military benefits for Ukraine, it's basically irrelevant. Russia lost some equipment but not really that much. Not enough to come even close to making it worth it for Ukraine, or enough to refute the idea that Russia did it. Since when has Russia ever been terribly concerned with "hurting itself" if they thought it would hurt the enemy too. And I just explained why this hurts Ukraine badly.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Yes and I just explained that with the status quo, it hurt russia worse in my understanding.
  - dralley 3y ago
    From the very article in the OP "The destruction of the dam, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in a news conference a week after the event, "ruined their counteroffensive in this direction." It was a comment that didn’t fit particularly well with his claim that the Ukrainians had destroyed the dam themselves."
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Ok, that is a new and strong fact to me, I missed so far, indeed indicating russian origin. It likely is wrong, though, but the justification seems to indicate that they thought it will help countering the offensive.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        ... but if the full quote is, like in the sibling comment, then everything is still far from clear.
        justsomehnguy 3y ago
        > then everything is still far from clear https://nitter.net/osintjourno/status/1682342248187416576 https://nitter.net/osintjourno/status/1682342248187416576 , from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37544753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37544753 >> For clarity: I still do not rule out the possibility that the Russians may have dealt an additional blow to the Kakhovka dam in phase 4, but the dam was actually so severely damaged four days before the collapse that it was beyond saving
    - justsomehnguy 3y ago
      >> “If Russia invades — that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine — then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.” But of course this is a totally different thing, amirite?
      - dralley 3y ago
        Nord Stream 2 did "end" the same day that Russia invaded. Its approval was revoked by the German government, as per the agreement that had been negotiated with the German government in exchange for the US dropping sanctions on the project. https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/22/business/nord-stream-2-germany-russia/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/22/business/nord-stream-2-german... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/business/nord-stream-pipeline-germany-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/business/nord-stream-pipe...
        justsomehnguy 3y ago
        Putin said "ruined their counteroffensive in this direction" - Russkies blew the dam Biden said "there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it" - totally unrelated things. *shurg_emoji*
        justsomehnguy 3y ago
        > It is clear who is guilty. The Ukrainian side strived for this. > You know, I won't say 100 percent things right now that I'm not sure about. By and large, we did not record any large explosions before the destruction occurred. In any case, that's what they reported to me. But they purposefully hit the Kakhovskaya hydroelectric power station repeatedly with HIMARS - that’s what it’s all about. Maybe they had some kind of backfill there, I don’t know now, maybe they once again added something insignificant, and destruction began. > But as we understand, we are definitely not interested in this, because these will have dire consequences for those territories that we control and which are Russian. This is the first. > And the second. Unfortunately, I’ll say a strange thing, but nevertheless, unfortunately, this thwarted their counteroffensive in this direction. Unfortunately - why? Because it would be better if they attacked there. It’s better for us, because it would be very bad for them to attack there. But since such a spill occurred, then, accordingly, the offensive did not take place. > The Ministry of Emergency Situations and the military are working actively there, as well as local authorities. All people will be provided with assistance in accordance with Russian legislation and standards. Mr. 'I blew the dam', 2023 Jun 13

dralley 3y ago

I say that unless the fact that the Russian side was lower resulted in meaningful military benefits for Ukraine, it's basically irrelevant. Russia lost some equipment but not really that much. Not enough to come even close to making it worth it for Ukraine, or enough to refute the idea that Russia did it. Since when has Russia ever been terribly concerned with "hurting itself" if they thought it would hurt the enemy too. And I just explained why this hurts Ukraine badly.

hutzlibu 3y ago
Yes and I just explained that with the status quo, it hurt russia worse in my understanding.
- dralley 3y ago
  From the very article in the OP "The destruction of the dam, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in a news conference a week after the event, "ruined their counteroffensive in this direction." It was a comment that didn’t fit particularly well with his claim that the Ukrainians had destroyed the dam themselves."
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Ok, that is a new and strong fact to me, I missed so far, indeed indicating russian origin. It likely is wrong, though, but the justification seems to indicate that they thought it will help countering the offensive.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      ... but if the full quote is, like in the sibling comment, then everything is still far from clear.
      - justsomehnguy 3y ago
        > then everything is still far from clear https://nitter.net/osintjourno/status/1682342248187416576 https://nitter.net/osintjourno/status/1682342248187416576 , from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37544753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37544753 >> For clarity: I still do not rule out the possibility that the Russians may have dealt an additional blow to the Kakhovka dam in phase 4, but the dam was actually so severely damaged four days before the collapse that it was beyond saving
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    >> “If Russia invades — that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine — then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.” But of course this is a totally different thing, amirite?
    - dralley 3y ago
      Nord Stream 2 did "end" the same day that Russia invaded. Its approval was revoked by the German government, as per the agreement that had been negotiated with the German government in exchange for the US dropping sanctions on the project. https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/22/business/nord-stream-2-germany-russia/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/22/business/nord-stream-2-german... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/business/nord-stream-pipeline-germany-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/business/nord-stream-pipe...
      - justsomehnguy 3y ago
        Putin said "ruined their counteroffensive in this direction" - Russkies blew the dam Biden said "there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it" - totally unrelated things. *shurg_emoji*
      - justsomehnguy 3y ago
        > It is clear who is guilty. The Ukrainian side strived for this. > You know, I won't say 100 percent things right now that I'm not sure about. By and large, we did not record any large explosions before the destruction occurred. In any case, that's what they reported to me. But they purposefully hit the Kakhovskaya hydroelectric power station repeatedly with HIMARS - that’s what it’s all about. Maybe they had some kind of backfill there, I don’t know now, maybe they once again added something insignificant, and destruction began. > But as we understand, we are definitely not interested in this, because these will have dire consequences for those territories that we control and which are Russian. This is the first. > And the second. Unfortunately, I’ll say a strange thing, but nevertheless, unfortunately, this thwarted their counteroffensive in this direction. Unfortunately - why? Because it would be better if they attacked there. It’s better for us, because it would be very bad for them to attack there. But since such a spill occurred, then, accordingly, the offensive did not take place. > The Ministry of Emergency Situations and the military are working actively there, as well as local authorities. All people will be provided with assistance in accordance with Russian legislation and standards. Mr. 'I blew the dam', 2023 Jun 13