5 ms·

Could we breed trees which capture more CO2? We increased crop yields multifold already: https://ourworldindata.org/crop-yields https://ourworldindata.org/cro

by mg 3y ago

Could we breed trees which capture more CO2? We increased crop yields multifold already: https://ourworldindata.org/crop-yields https://ourworldindata.org/crop-yields So maybe we can do the same to carbon yield? Are trees the plants which capture most CO2 per hectare?

myshpa 3y ago
> We increased crop yields multifold already With catastrophic effects. https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2023-09-13-all-planetary-boundaries-mapped-out-for-the-first-time-six-of-nine-crossed.html https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2... All planetary boundaries mapped out for the first time, six of nine crossed https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agriculture_production_as_a_major_driver_of_the_Earth_system_exceeding_planetary_boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... Agriculture production as a major driver of the Earth system exceeding planetary boundaries Most of it is because of animal agriculture - it uses 80% of agriculture land and about half of our crops. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding... > Could we breed trees which capture more CO2? We don't have to breed new trees. The ones we have are enough. We have enough space to capture 2+x more CO2 than we've released into the atmosphere since industrial revolution. We could switch to plant-based diets and free an area the size of both Americas. https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land-Use-01.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land... On that land a regular primeval forest, Miyawayki/Amazon/Syntropic style would grow 10x faster than regular monocultures and that would also enable the biodiversity to rebound. We'd get ourselves out of overshoot in no time (given few decades, of course). https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-00603-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-00603-4 https://ourworldindata.org/carbon-opportunity-costs-food https://ourworldindata.org/carbon-opportunity-costs-food The overshoot threatens our civilization with crop failures. The only realistic way out of it is immediate phase-out of fossil fuels and plant-based diets. https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/917471 https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/917471
- foota 3y ago
  Your two quotes don't follow: > We increased crop yields multifold already With catastrophic effects. > Most of it is because of animal agriculture.
  - defrost 3y ago
    The animals need to be fed - a great deal of crop yield goes into making meat.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    > two quotes don't follow They do. A significant influence on those increases was thanks to fertilizers, insecticides, and herbicides. This goes hand in hand with water pollution and biodiversity loss, exemplified by dead zones in oceans and an 80% decline in insect populations in the last few decades. Improvements in irrigation systems have led to the depletion of our aquifers, which were filled over many millennia, and their renewal may take centuries. Mechanization and soil management lead to soil erosion; maybe only a few decades of soil remain until we lose all of it. Less than 50% of our crops are for human consumption; the rest is used as animal feed and biofuels.
  - timeon 3y ago
    As example most soy is used by animal agriculture.
    - MandieD 3y ago
      One way to reduce the amount of soy grown is to eat more soy.
  - OJFord 3y ago
    I misread that at first too, but animal agriculture. i.e. stuff grown for fodder. It's more efficient to fuel a human on food grown in the ground than on an animal fed on food grown in the ground. (I'm not vegan or otherwise promoting absolutes, it's just easier to explain/understand in the extreme I think.)
- 3y ago
montalbano 3y ago
Lots of people have been working on this for a long time. But it's a very hard problem. See for example + https://www.salk.edu/harnessing-plants-initiative/ https://www.salk.edu/harnessing-plants-initiative/ + https://www.slcu.cam.ac.uk/news/wood-modification-boosts-biomass-conversion https://www.slcu.cam.ac.uk/news/wood-modification-boosts-bio... + https://news.mongabay.com/2023/07/genetically-engineered-trees-stoke-climate-hope-and-environmental-fears/ https://news.mongabay.com/2023/07/genetically-engineered-tre... + https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/science/genetically-modified-trees-living-carbon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/science/genetically-modif... > Are trees the plants which capture most CO2 per hectare? I'm struggling to find exact numbers per hectare, and it's only one of several important metrics (e.g. speed of capture, longevity, ecosystem effects). From my readings I believe a combined strategy of species-diverse reforestation and algae breeding (perhaps GM, though I don't know enough) would be optimal. Edit: as noted by others below, wetlands preservation and extension would also be great.
edhelas 3y ago
STOP thinking that planting trees will solve the problem. We need to plan _forests_ not trees. Trees are not tools to fix our CO2 problem, we need to restore ecosystems and think how we can regrow forests and not monocultures of a "super CO2 capture tree". When we will start to understand that one problem != one solution, especially when it comes to things as intricate and complex than ecosystems we will start to understand the root of our issues properly.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Agree completely. Just a note that monoculture plantations don't function the same way as vast, diverse, multi-level primeval forests, with regards to a water cycle and biodiversity.
- Temporary_31337 3y ago
  Also thinking about only the CO2 is such a narrow thing. We’ve disturbed natural ecosystems in so many ways- bees pollination, animal migration, natural predators and so on.
DoreenMichele 3y ago
Wetlands capture a lot more CO2 and we have lost 85 percent of them globally since the 1700s.
mywacaday 3y ago
There's part of me thinks just let the worst happen and let it end half of humanity, that way we might learn to live more in harmony with our environment. Currently we're a pox on this planet.
- jkhdigital 3y ago
  Half of humanity is not going to die from climate change. It is going to die from other people who consider humanity itself to be a pox. Also, birth rates are in terminal decline pretty much everywhere except Africa so don’t worry, we’ll control our population on our own.
- kzrdude 3y ago
  If we grow our resource use to such a point that we reach a ceiling, then we are exactly like a pox, or any other organism that breeds until its niche is filled. Those who want to make us live sustainably now or previously are hoping that we can be smarter than that. We're supposed to be a smart species. Can we limit ourselves artificially to preserve a better quality of life? Easy to be pessimistic about this now(!)
- krona 3y ago
  That might take a while. Humans fare better in hotter climates.
- timeon 3y ago
  > let it end half of humanity What about other animals?
- fsloth 3y ago
  "let it end half of humanity" You do realize that would be mostly the half whose nations had nothing to with this mess in the first place, right? The rich well of nations of northern hemisphere will not suffer dramatic population falls (just the slow, endemic kind from low birth rate).
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >There's part of me thinks just let the worst happen and let it end half of humanity Good idea. Why don't you start with yourself?
maCDzP 3y ago
I believe algae, and speifically Coccolithophores, have played a large part in capturing CO2 in the atmosphere. But I believe the efficiency per volume is low.
gonzo41 3y ago
Undewater kelp forests are where we should be aiming. There's a lot of researching happening here atm. Seaweed can grow 40X faster than a tree because it doesn't have to fight as hard against gravity. So growing large biomass in the oceans seems like a great way to sink carbon. Also closing the loop on plastics.
Rnonymous 3y ago
Crop yields have increased by use of fertilizers, modern farming machinery, and chemicals that prevent disease. Yields did NOT substantially increase due to higher photosynthetic rates which is how carbon is fixated.

by mg 3y ago

myshpa 3y ago

> We increased crop yields multifold already With catastrophic effects. https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2023-09-13-all-planetary-boundaries-mapped-out-for-the-first-time-six-of-nine-crossed.html https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2... All planetary boundaries mapped out for the first time, six of nine crossed https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agriculture_production_as_a_major_driver_of_the_Earth_system_exceeding_planetary_boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... Agriculture production as a major driver of the Earth system exceeding planetary boundaries Most of it is because of animal agriculture - it uses 80% of agriculture land and about half of our crops. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding... > Could we breed trees which capture more CO2? We don't have to breed new trees. The ones we have are enough. We have enough space to capture 2+x more CO2 than we've released into the atmosphere since industrial revolution. We could switch to plant-based diets and free an area the size of both Americas. https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land-Use-01.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land... On that land a regular primeval forest, Miyawayki/Amazon/Syntropic style would grow 10x faster than regular monocultures and that would also enable the biodiversity to rebound. We'd get ourselves out of overshoot in no time (given few decades, of course). https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-00603-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-00603-4 https://ourworldindata.org/carbon-opportunity-costs-food https://ourworldindata.org/carbon-opportunity-costs-food The overshoot threatens our civilization with crop failures. The only realistic way out of it is immediate phase-out of fossil fuels and plant-based diets. https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/917471 https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/917471

foota 3y ago
Your two quotes don't follow: > We increased crop yields multifold already With catastrophic effects. > Most of it is because of animal agriculture.
- defrost 3y ago
  The animals need to be fed - a great deal of crop yield goes into making meat.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > two quotes don't follow They do. A significant influence on those increases was thanks to fertilizers, insecticides, and herbicides. This goes hand in hand with water pollution and biodiversity loss, exemplified by dead zones in oceans and an 80% decline in insect populations in the last few decades. Improvements in irrigation systems have led to the depletion of our aquifers, which were filled over many millennia, and their renewal may take centuries. Mechanization and soil management lead to soil erosion; maybe only a few decades of soil remain until we lose all of it. Less than 50% of our crops are for human consumption; the rest is used as animal feed and biofuels.
- timeon 3y ago
  As example most soy is used by animal agriculture.
  - MandieD 3y ago
    One way to reduce the amount of soy grown is to eat more soy.
- OJFord 3y ago
  I misread that at first too, but animal agriculture. i.e. stuff grown for fodder. It's more efficient to fuel a human on food grown in the ground than on an animal fed on food grown in the ground. (I'm not vegan or otherwise promoting absolutes, it's just easier to explain/understand in the extreme I think.)
3y ago

montalbano 3y ago

Lots of people have been working on this for a long time. But it's a very hard problem. See for example + https://www.salk.edu/harnessing-plants-initiative/ https://www.salk.edu/harnessing-plants-initiative/ + https://www.slcu.cam.ac.uk/news/wood-modification-boosts-biomass-conversion https://www.slcu.cam.ac.uk/news/wood-modification-boosts-bio... + https://news.mongabay.com/2023/07/genetically-engineered-trees-stoke-climate-hope-and-environmental-fears/ https://news.mongabay.com/2023/07/genetically-engineered-tre... + https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/science/genetically-modified-trees-living-carbon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/science/genetically-modif... > Are trees the plants which capture most CO2 per hectare? I'm struggling to find exact numbers per hectare, and it's only one of several important metrics (e.g. speed of capture, longevity, ecosystem effects). From my readings I believe a combined strategy of species-diverse reforestation and algae breeding (perhaps GM, though I don't know enough) would be optimal. Edit: as noted by others below, wetlands preservation and extension would also be great.

edhelas 3y ago

STOP thinking that planting trees will solve the problem. We need to plan _forests_ not trees. Trees are not tools to fix our CO2 problem, we need to restore ecosystems and think how we can regrow forests and not monocultures of a "super CO2 capture tree". When we will start to understand that one problem != one solution, especially when it comes to things as intricate and complex than ecosystems we will start to understand the root of our issues properly.

myshpa 3y ago
Agree completely. Just a note that monoculture plantations don't function the same way as vast, diverse, multi-level primeval forests, with regards to a water cycle and biodiversity.
Temporary_31337 3y ago
Also thinking about only the CO2 is such a narrow thing. We’ve disturbed natural ecosystems in so many ways- bees pollination, animal migration, natural predators and so on.

DoreenMichele 3y ago

Wetlands capture a lot more CO2 and we have lost 85 percent of them globally since the 1700s.

mywacaday 3y ago

There's part of me thinks just let the worst happen and let it end half of humanity, that way we might learn to live more in harmony with our environment. Currently we're a pox on this planet.

jkhdigital 3y ago
Half of humanity is not going to die from climate change. It is going to die from other people who consider humanity itself to be a pox. Also, birth rates are in terminal decline pretty much everywhere except Africa so don’t worry, we’ll control our population on our own.
kzrdude 3y ago
If we grow our resource use to such a point that we reach a ceiling, then we are exactly like a pox, or any other organism that breeds until its niche is filled. Those who want to make us live sustainably now or previously are hoping that we can be smarter than that. We're supposed to be a smart species. Can we limit ourselves artificially to preserve a better quality of life? Easy to be pessimistic about this now(!)
krona 3y ago
That might take a while. Humans fare better in hotter climates.
timeon 3y ago
> let it end half of humanity What about other animals?
fsloth 3y ago
"let it end half of humanity" You do realize that would be mostly the half whose nations had nothing to with this mess in the first place, right? The rich well of nations of northern hemisphere will not suffer dramatic population falls (just the slow, endemic kind from low birth rate).
nobody9999 3y ago
>There's part of me thinks just let the worst happen and let it end half of humanity Good idea. Why don't you start with yourself?

maCDzP 3y ago

I believe algae, and speifically Coccolithophores, have played a large part in capturing CO2 in the atmosphere. But I believe the efficiency per volume is low.

gonzo41 3y ago

Undewater kelp forests are where we should be aiming. There's a lot of researching happening here atm. Seaweed can grow 40X faster than a tree because it doesn't have to fight as hard against gravity. So growing large biomass in the oceans seems like a great way to sink carbon. Also closing the loop on plastics.

Rnonymous 3y ago

Crop yields have increased by use of fertilizers, modern farming machinery, and chemicals that prevent disease. Yields did NOT substantially increase due to higher photosynthetic rates which is how carbon is fixated.