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This is the reason why I am trying to move away from being a software engineer. I don't like to complain but it is honestly degrading how SE are treated in some

This is the reason why I am trying to move away from being a software engineer. I don't like to complain but it is honestly degrading how SE are treated in some places. I've been on teams with 4 project managers/analysts and 3 developers. They will expect you to do all the real hard work while they sit in meetings all day making UI mockups and architecture diagrams. There is just no way in winning this.

bazoom42 3y ago
What is degrading about that? Would you rather sit in meetings than develop?
- DrDroop 3y ago
  I would like to work in a place where communication is a two way thing.
  - Danjoe4 3y ago
    It's a culture issue. Some PMs get the impression that they're higher up in the hierarchy; they start delegating instead of negotiating with the devs. Really they're just around because upper management prefers talking to them instead of the pseudo autistic engineers.
threeseed 3y ago
> They will expect you to do all the real hard work while they sit in meetings all day making UI mockups and architecture diagrams You could also look at this the other way. They are the ones doing the real hard work i.e. making tough decisions, dealing with stakeholders, incomplete and poorly conceived requirements whilst you just get to build what's written down on a page. Everyone plays their role in companies and assume they are the indispensable ones.
- DrDroop 3y ago
  I think the point of the article was that to be valuable as an engineer you have to do things like "making tough decisions, dealing with stakeholders, incomplete and poorly conceived requirements". My problem is that a lot of people have your attitude and pretend that they are doing me a favour by having this being written down all the while limiting the actual design space for a problem, and in the same breath patronise me on what teamwork is really like.
  - pavlov 3y ago
    If you want to do that work, have you looked for ways you could get involved? Or if it’s the case that you’re actually doing that work behind the scenes because the output from the PMs isn’t very useful, have you looked for ways to make your contribution more visible?
- sanitycheck 3y ago
  Oh, how I laughed. Mostly they just pass those things on to the developers to deal with. Then we have to figure out how to bypass them and communicate with the stakeholders ourselves to figure out what the real requirements are and what we can build which solves their problem and yet is still broadly recognisable as the specified deliverable. After that, coding it is easy.
Danjoe4 3y ago
Yes PM roles seem to be exploding at certain companies and it's a bad thing for developers. There's not enough engineers to meet demand so just hire more PMs seems to be the strategy.

bazoom42 3y ago

What is degrading about that? Would you rather sit in meetings than develop?

DrDroop 3y ago
I would like to work in a place where communication is a two way thing.
- Danjoe4 3y ago
  It's a culture issue. Some PMs get the impression that they're higher up in the hierarchy; they start delegating instead of negotiating with the devs. Really they're just around because upper management prefers talking to them instead of the pseudo autistic engineers.

threeseed 3y ago

> They will expect you to do all the real hard work while they sit in meetings all day making UI mockups and architecture diagrams You could also look at this the other way. They are the ones doing the real hard work i.e. making tough decisions, dealing with stakeholders, incomplete and poorly conceived requirements whilst you just get to build what's written down on a page. Everyone plays their role in companies and assume they are the indispensable ones.

DrDroop 3y ago
I think the point of the article was that to be valuable as an engineer you have to do things like "making tough decisions, dealing with stakeholders, incomplete and poorly conceived requirements". My problem is that a lot of people have your attitude and pretend that they are doing me a favour by having this being written down all the while limiting the actual design space for a problem, and in the same breath patronise me on what teamwork is really like.
- pavlov 3y ago
  If you want to do that work, have you looked for ways you could get involved? Or if it’s the case that you’re actually doing that work behind the scenes because the output from the PMs isn’t very useful, have you looked for ways to make your contribution more visible?
sanitycheck 3y ago
Oh, how I laughed. Mostly they just pass those things on to the developers to deal with. Then we have to figure out how to bypass them and communicate with the stakeholders ourselves to figure out what the real requirements are and what we can build which solves their problem and yet is still broadly recognisable as the specified deliverable. After that, coding it is easy.

Danjoe4 3y ago

Yes PM roles seem to be exploding at certain companies and it's a bad thing for developers. There's not enough engineers to meet demand so just hire more PMs seems to be the strategy.