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It’s funny how shallow the understanding of everyday believers in religions frequently are. Whenever I read about historical Christian schisms especially really

It’s funny how shallow the understanding of everyday believers in religions frequently are. Whenever I read about historical Christian schisms especially really early ones during the Roman Empire, it occurs to me how so few of the modern faithful have any understanding or interest in these theological issues that caused so much bloodshed and tears. The biggest bible thumper in Alabama probably hasn’t ever worried about if Christ was made of the same material substance as other aspects of the Trinity and if so, at what points, but that sort of thing can be geopolitical dynamite when the right elites fight over it.

syndicatedjelly 3y ago
One could say the same of followers of "scientism". Every belief system has it's know-nothing followers who just parrot whatever they hear.
alephnerd 3y ago
Most people never had a deep theological understanding of religion. Mass Literacy only became a thing in the 20th century. There's a reason why folk religions and customs exist (eg. Folk saints in Mexico and Southern Europe, the entire Chinese Folk Religion, Pir Darghas and Dervishes in Islam, etc) Also "Hinduism" is a broad term for general folk religious practices in the South Asian subcontinent. For example, in the Himalayan region I am from you will see people revere an Iranian origin Muslim preacher who came to the area in the 13th century (Lakhdatta) despite also being "Hindu" or "Sikh"
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  The Wikipedia article for Lakhdatta is at “Syed Ahmad Sultan”.[0] Thanks for reminding me of him, I definitely saw his image hung in businesses in India whose proprietors otherwise seemed very Hindu or Sikh. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syed_Ahmad_Sultan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syed_Ahmad_Sultan
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Yep. He's commonly revered in the Pir Panjal range. For some reason, Hazarajat, Derajat, Jammu, Half of Himachal, Gurdaspur District, and Sialkot area all revere him. Heck, even the traditional language in Swat (Torwali) before it became Pakhto speaking in the 19th century is intelligible for anyone who can speak a Western Pahari language (eg. Dogra, Hindko, "Pahari") after seeing my dad surprisingly understand a BBC documentary about the Swat insurgency back in the 2010s. I wanted to dig into the cultural connection a bit deeper in college, but the RoI on graduate education on Sociology or Anthropology ain't there
    - selimthegrim 3y ago
      My (Ahmedi) family is originally from Gurdaspur district, and while we had a picture of Nanak around, I don’t remember hearing about Syed Ahmad Sultan (although I have heard of him by the name of Sakhi Sarwar) but rather Data Ganj Bakhsh, Hz. Khizr (especially), Bulleh Shah and the “Char Yaar”
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        Make sense! Khwaja Khizr and Ganj Baksh are also venerated in my area - often at the same time with Sakai Sarwar (eg. This random whatsapp forward - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XFZuubbGNXQ?feature=share https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XFZuubbGNXQ?feature=share) By Gurdaspur, I meant the undivided Gurdaspur division, which included the hill regions of what's now Pathankot District in East Punjab and I think some of northern regions in West Punjab
        selimthegrim 3y ago
        You are thinking of Shakargarh tehsil which was detached from Gurdaspur and given to Pak (Narowal) NB: casteist but still funny - https://www.facebook.com/RaahEHayatOfficial/videos/457120242027032/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v https://www.facebook.com/RaahEHayatOfficial/videos/457120242...
        3y ago
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
There are enough Bible thumpers in the USA at least vaguely familiar with early Christological disputes, that non-trinitarian denominations like Oneness Pentecostalism[0] were founded. But otherwise, presumably there isn’t much interest in those disputes, whether because sola Scriptura denominations would claim that mainstream Trinitarian views were already set out in Scripture and therefore no need to study the later debates, or because the patristic literature is written by obvious Byzantine Orthodox and sometimes in very atticizing Greek, both of which would make American non-mainline-Protestants uncomfortable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism
svieira 3y ago
> hasn’t ever worried about if Christ was made of the same material substance as other aspects of the Trinity And if he does, he's asking the wrong question. "Substance" does not imply "matter" in Platonic, Aristotelian, or Scholastic philosophy. The heretical belief that God is made of matter is a distinct heresy from the heresies concerning the procession of the Trinity, which are themselves distinct from heresies which deny the existence of the Trinity. Catholic doctrine is full of distinctions, the understanding of which are not necessary for salvation (praise be).

syndicatedjelly 3y ago

One could say the same of followers of "scientism". Every belief system has it's know-nothing followers who just parrot whatever they hear.

alephnerd 3y ago

Most people never had a deep theological understanding of religion. Mass Literacy only became a thing in the 20th century. There's a reason why folk religions and customs exist (eg. Folk saints in Mexico and Southern Europe, the entire Chinese Folk Religion, Pir Darghas and Dervishes in Islam, etc) Also "Hinduism" is a broad term for general folk religious practices in the South Asian subcontinent. For example, in the Himalayan region I am from you will see people revere an Iranian origin Muslim preacher who came to the area in the 13th century (Lakhdatta) despite also being "Hindu" or "Sikh"

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
The Wikipedia article for Lakhdatta is at “Syed Ahmad Sultan”.[0] Thanks for reminding me of him, I definitely saw his image hung in businesses in India whose proprietors otherwise seemed very Hindu or Sikh. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syed_Ahmad_Sultan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syed_Ahmad_Sultan
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Yep. He's commonly revered in the Pir Panjal range. For some reason, Hazarajat, Derajat, Jammu, Half of Himachal, Gurdaspur District, and Sialkot area all revere him. Heck, even the traditional language in Swat (Torwali) before it became Pakhto speaking in the 19th century is intelligible for anyone who can speak a Western Pahari language (eg. Dogra, Hindko, "Pahari") after seeing my dad surprisingly understand a BBC documentary about the Swat insurgency back in the 2010s. I wanted to dig into the cultural connection a bit deeper in college, but the RoI on graduate education on Sociology or Anthropology ain't there
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    My (Ahmedi) family is originally from Gurdaspur district, and while we had a picture of Nanak around, I don’t remember hearing about Syed Ahmad Sultan (although I have heard of him by the name of Sakhi Sarwar) but rather Data Ganj Bakhsh, Hz. Khizr (especially), Bulleh Shah and the “Char Yaar”
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Make sense! Khwaja Khizr and Ganj Baksh are also venerated in my area - often at the same time with Sakai Sarwar (eg. This random whatsapp forward - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XFZuubbGNXQ?feature=share https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XFZuubbGNXQ?feature=share) By Gurdaspur, I meant the undivided Gurdaspur division, which included the hill regions of what's now Pathankot District in East Punjab and I think some of northern regions in West Punjab
      - selimthegrim 3y ago
        You are thinking of Shakargarh tehsil which was detached from Gurdaspur and given to Pak (Narowal) NB: casteist but still funny - https://www.facebook.com/RaahEHayatOfficial/videos/457120242027032/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v https://www.facebook.com/RaahEHayatOfficial/videos/457120242...
        3y ago

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

There are enough Bible thumpers in the USA at least vaguely familiar with early Christological disputes, that non-trinitarian denominations like Oneness Pentecostalism[0] were founded. But otherwise, presumably there isn’t much interest in those disputes, whether because sola Scriptura denominations would claim that mainstream Trinitarian views were already set out in Scripture and therefore no need to study the later debates, or because the patristic literature is written by obvious Byzantine Orthodox and sometimes in very atticizing Greek, both of which would make American non-mainline-Protestants uncomfortable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

svieira 3y ago

> hasn’t ever worried about if Christ was made of the same material substance as other aspects of the Trinity And if he does, he's asking the wrong question. "Substance" does not imply "matter" in Platonic, Aristotelian, or Scholastic philosophy. The heretical belief that God is made of matter is a distinct heresy from the heresies concerning the procession of the Trinity, which are themselves distinct from heresies which deny the existence of the Trinity. Catholic doctrine is full of distinctions, the understanding of which are not necessary for salvation (praise be).