5 ms·

Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Sites Is Reshaping Beliefs

43 points by dnetesn 3y ago

voldacar 3y ago
> The gods of this region are closely associated with the land itself; and these gods, nature and humans are intimately connected Since these gods don't actually exist, any statement predicated of them has no truth value.
- lm28469 3y ago
  Them not existing didn't prevent them from shaping the world you live in I know it's cool to be edgy but at the end of the day a lot of things are run on beliefs The invisible hand of the market doesn't exist either but we talk about it all day long in this forum
known 3y ago
[dead]
Proven 3y ago
[dead]
mistrial9 3y ago
author David Haberman tells a first-person story, with more context in his recent book https://iupress.org/9780253056047/understanding-climate-change-through-religious-lifeworlds/ https://iupress.org/9780253056047/understanding-climate-chan...
- wtmt 3y ago
  Could you list any points that stood out to you in this context and on the topic of this thread?
  - mistrial9 3y ago
    my first reaction is that the author is a student of religion, and expands and retells modern religious evolution. You could say that the writing gives "voice" to religious thought. This topic of study and publication alone is in large contrast to many non-religious or even religious-hostile comments here on YNews second note is that "voice" is not an accidental word.. it is literally human sound, in religious context, to others who understand it that way.. Generally, to read words, almost always means repeating the sounds in your mind with meaning at the same time. In my view, religion is significant, is not "fake", does provide meaningful ways to see the world and is relevant to human coping and human discovery. The sounds of voice giving names to change, threats, adversity, some-definition of Evil, etc.. do matter in my view and also the view of Haberman. So I chose to amplify that writing, called a voice, with a comment here, to draw attention to the work, its inquiry, its contents and the value system that is related to those..
syndicatedjelly 3y ago
> One significant theological change that appeared to be underway within Himalayan Hinduism as a result of climate change was the transformation of the primary conception of the gods from those who bless to those who punish. This is not a new view in Hinduism. There is a concept that the world goes through cycles and we are now in the end stage [Kali Yuga](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga)
- alephnerd 3y ago
  No one talks about Kali Yug stuff in folk Hinduism in the Himalayan region. All that "Wikipedia Hinduism" stuff is weird esoteric content that everyday Hindus haven't heard about. Source: am part of the Pahari diaspora
  - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
    What's an "everyday" Hindu?
  - unholythree 3y ago
    It’s funny how shallow the understanding of everyday believers in religions frequently are. Whenever I read about historical Christian schisms especially really early ones during the Roman Empire, it occurs to me how so few of the modern faithful have any understanding or interest in these theological issues that caused so much bloodshed and tears. The biggest bible thumper in Alabama probably hasn’t ever worried about if Christ was made of the same material substance as other aspects of the Trinity and if so, at what points, but that sort of thing can be geopolitical dynamite when the right elites fight over it.
    - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
      One could say the same of followers of "scientism". Every belief system has it's know-nothing followers who just parrot whatever they hear.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
alephnerd 3y ago
My family is from that general area and the description feels a little Orientalizing > The gods of this region are closely associated with the land itself; and these gods, nature and humans are intimately connected While plenty of people are religious, everyone there know it's a mix of climate change and unchecked construction and logging mafias destroying the local ecology and leaving it ripe for massive disasters. For example, take a look at the recent floods in Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, and Jammu Kashmir. It was triggered by climate change but further exacerbated by a mix of shoddy construction, unpermitted construction of hotels on ridge edges, riverbed mining (done by both the INC and BJP - both Agnihotri and Satti are part of the mining mafia back in Una) and the Indian Govt building highways in a manner that works for plains, not high altitude ridges. [0][1][2] The scary thing is, Himachal Pradesh is pretty well governed by developing country standards - it's developmental indicators match up with Kerala and most Provinces within China. Imagine if climate change disasters and unchecked development happens in weakly governed areas (eg. The Medicane in Libya - 7 dead in Türkiye, 10,000-100,000 dead in Libya) [0] - https://theprint.in/ground-reports/himachal-floods-a-perfect-storm-multi-storey-buildings-on-shaky-mountaintops/1732101/ https://theprint.in/ground-reports/himachal-floods-a-perfect... [1] - https://theprint.in/india/himachal-to-consider-controlled-riverbed-mining-to-curb-floods-but-environmentalists-sound-caution/1724611/ https://theprint.in/india/himachal-to-consider-controlled-ri... [2] - https://theprint.in/india/as-rains-kill-20-in-himachal-residents-say-dumping-of-construction-debris-in-rivers-adding-to-problem/1663366/ https://theprint.in/india/as-rains-kill-20-in-himachal-resid...
- mortureb 3y ago
  That’s interesting. I didn’t realize had HP had a development factor close to Kerala (74 vs 75)
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    It's around 0.723. I might be biased but the poverty alleviation work done in Himachal Pradesh (and also Tamil Nadu and Haryana to a certain extent) are much more impressive than Kerala, which already had higher than average developmental indicators at independence. When Himachal became a state in 1971, there were only 1,000 MI of roads total, and the literacy rate was around 6-7%, yet by 2023, the literacy rate has reached 82.8% (it's near 100% for those born in the 1990s onwards), rural healthcare and electrification has reached even tiny hamlets on the Tibetan plateau, and there is a massive biopharmaceutical industry with a annual revenue roughly comparable to Telangana despite being a much smaller state (6 million Himachalis). Tamil Nadu and Haryana are 2 other states that made amazing leaps from undeveloped to industrialized. Here's are good reads on the governance apparatus in Himachal: https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/Asian_Survey_5505_03_Mangla_219b4d54-2a4f-4a43-a0ab-d632628f8fae.pdf https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/Asian_Survey_550... https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-reports/documentdetail/139691467991985197/scaling-the-heights-social-inclusion-and-sustainable-development-in-himachal-pradesh https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-rep...
indus 3y ago
One sacred site that was submerged due to rising sea level is the ancient city of Dwarka—-in Gujarat off Indian ocean. The remains of this 5000 year old capital of Lord Krishna—-archaeologists have found walls, artifacts, and structures off the modern Dwarka. The city holds immense mythological significance and ancient texts such as Mahabharat corroborate the existence.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  > The remains of this 5000 year old capital of Lord Krishna From Wikipedia, with citations[0]: “Archaeological findings suggest the original temple Dwarkadhish Temple dedicated to Krishna was built in 200 BCE at the earliest.” Any reference to Krishna further back than that is mere legend, and considering that the name Krishna is etymologically from a language family that did not even reach India until more recently than five thousand years ago, your claim is preposterous on its face. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarka
  - dagmx 3y ago
    As an Indian, the rise of Hindutva has been so damaging to history. So I appreciate people like you who provide more historical context and grounding. So much gets retconned with these apocryphal takes on how everything relates to Hinduism. So much of the rich history of the subcontinent has been reduced to religious politics. There is so much cultural erasure in the name of religious vanity. I was raised Hindu but I just can’t relate to this religious fervour
  - indus 3y ago
    I’m not claiming anything—-nor an expert. Just reciting the experts[0] It is laziness to cite a Wikipedia article without doing any research. [0] https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2021/05/the-mythical-underwater-city-of-dwarka-india-is-9500-years-old/ https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2021/05/the-mythical-underwa...
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
developer93 3y ago
I notice there are no named quotes here, it's all "a holy man" "a woman". I admit I didn't read the other sources like the book but it's a bit of a red flag for me.
- yalogin 3y ago
  It’s not clear what your expectation is. It’s quotes from people so even if they name them there isn’t much meaning to it.
  - antonvs 3y ago
    It's easier to make up stories to support a narrative when you don't have to be specific about it. Hence the suspicion mentioned by the other commenter.
  - developer93 3y ago
    While most readers probably won't check further, if they print "mr y from village x said this" there's more chance that either mr y can come forward & say "no I didn't" or other villagers can say "I live in village x and I don't know any mr y" or another journalist can say "I checked the records of village x and there's no mr y listed". Unnamed sources are a great delight of tabloid writers and while not proof of lying, they make a story less credible. This is why credible news programmes/newspapers have things like requiring at least 2 sources for any claim. Journalistic standards are a thing.
yalogin 3y ago
Anything bad is attributed to immoral ways of the people by all religions. A disaster is something religions don’t waste, and they always point out god is angry. Happens in every country.

43 points by dnetesn 3y ago

> The gods of this region are closely associated with the land itself; and these gods, nature and humans are intimately connected Since these gods don't actually exist, any statement predicated of them has no truth value.

lm28469 3y ago
Them not existing didn't prevent them from shaping the world you live in I know it's cool to be edgy but at the end of the day a lot of things are run on beliefs The invisible hand of the market doesn't exist either but we talk about it all day long in this forum

known 3y ago

[dead]

Proven 3y ago

[dead]

mistrial9 3y ago

author David Haberman tells a first-person story, with more context in his recent book https://iupress.org/9780253056047/understanding-climate-change-through-religious-lifeworlds/ https://iupress.org/9780253056047/understanding-climate-chan...

wtmt 3y ago
Could you list any points that stood out to you in this context and on the topic of this thread?
- mistrial9 3y ago
  my first reaction is that the author is a student of religion, and expands and retells modern religious evolution. You could say that the writing gives "voice" to religious thought. This topic of study and publication alone is in large contrast to many non-religious or even religious-hostile comments here on YNews second note is that "voice" is not an accidental word.. it is literally human sound, in religious context, to others who understand it that way.. Generally, to read words, almost always means repeating the sounds in your mind with meaning at the same time. In my view, religion is significant, is not "fake", does provide meaningful ways to see the world and is relevant to human coping and human discovery. The sounds of voice giving names to change, threats, adversity, some-definition of Evil, etc.. do matter in my view and also the view of Haberman. So I chose to amplify that writing, called a voice, with a comment here, to draw attention to the work, its inquiry, its contents and the value system that is related to those..

syndicatedjelly 3y ago

> One significant theological change that appeared to be underway within Himalayan Hinduism as a result of climate change was the transformation of the primary conception of the gods from those who bless to those who punish. This is not a new view in Hinduism. There is a concept that the world goes through cycles and we are now in the end stage [Kali Yuga](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga)

alephnerd 3y ago
No one talks about Kali Yug stuff in folk Hinduism in the Himalayan region. All that "Wikipedia Hinduism" stuff is weird esoteric content that everyday Hindus haven't heard about. Source: am part of the Pahari diaspora
- syndicatedjelly 3y ago
  What's an "everyday" Hindu?
- unholythree 3y ago
  It’s funny how shallow the understanding of everyday believers in religions frequently are. Whenever I read about historical Christian schisms especially really early ones during the Roman Empire, it occurs to me how so few of the modern faithful have any understanding or interest in these theological issues that caused so much bloodshed and tears. The biggest bible thumper in Alabama probably hasn’t ever worried about if Christ was made of the same material substance as other aspects of the Trinity and if so, at what points, but that sort of thing can be geopolitical dynamite when the right elites fight over it.
  - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
    One could say the same of followers of "scientism". Every belief system has it's know-nothing followers who just parrot whatever they hear.
  - alephnerd 3y ago

alephnerd 3y ago

My family is from that general area and the description feels a little Orientalizing > The gods of this region are closely associated with the land itself; and these gods, nature and humans are intimately connected While plenty of people are religious, everyone there know it's a mix of climate change and unchecked construction and logging mafias destroying the local ecology and leaving it ripe for massive disasters. For example, take a look at the recent floods in Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, and Jammu Kashmir. It was triggered by climate change but further exacerbated by a mix of shoddy construction, unpermitted construction of hotels on ridge edges, riverbed mining (done by both the INC and BJP - both Agnihotri and Satti are part of the mining mafia back in Una) and the Indian Govt building highways in a manner that works for plains, not high altitude ridges. [0][1][2] The scary thing is, Himachal Pradesh is pretty well governed by developing country standards - it's developmental indicators match up with Kerala and most Provinces within China. Imagine if climate change disasters and unchecked development happens in weakly governed areas (eg. The Medicane in Libya - 7 dead in Türkiye, 10,000-100,000 dead in Libya) [0] - https://theprint.in/ground-reports/himachal-floods-a-perfect-storm-multi-storey-buildings-on-shaky-mountaintops/1732101/ https://theprint.in/ground-reports/himachal-floods-a-perfect... [1] - https://theprint.in/india/himachal-to-consider-controlled-riverbed-mining-to-curb-floods-but-environmentalists-sound-caution/1724611/ https://theprint.in/india/himachal-to-consider-controlled-ri... [2] - https://theprint.in/india/as-rains-kill-20-in-himachal-residents-say-dumping-of-construction-debris-in-rivers-adding-to-problem/1663366/ https://theprint.in/india/as-rains-kill-20-in-himachal-resid...

mortureb 3y ago
That’s interesting. I didn’t realize had HP had a development factor close to Kerala (74 vs 75)
- alephnerd 3y ago
  It's around 0.723. I might be biased but the poverty alleviation work done in Himachal Pradesh (and also Tamil Nadu and Haryana to a certain extent) are much more impressive than Kerala, which already had higher than average developmental indicators at independence. When Himachal became a state in 1971, there were only 1,000 MI of roads total, and the literacy rate was around 6-7%, yet by 2023, the literacy rate has reached 82.8% (it's near 100% for those born in the 1990s onwards), rural healthcare and electrification has reached even tiny hamlets on the Tibetan plateau, and there is a massive biopharmaceutical industry with a annual revenue roughly comparable to Telangana despite being a much smaller state (6 million Himachalis). Tamil Nadu and Haryana are 2 other states that made amazing leaps from undeveloped to industrialized. Here's are good reads on the governance apparatus in Himachal: https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/Asian_Survey_5505_03_Mangla_219b4d54-2a4f-4a43-a0ab-d632628f8fae.pdf https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/Asian_Survey_550... https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-reports/documentdetail/139691467991985197/scaling-the-heights-social-inclusion-and-sustainable-development-in-himachal-pradesh https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-rep...

indus 3y ago

One sacred site that was submerged due to rising sea level is the ancient city of Dwarka—-in Gujarat off Indian ocean. The remains of this 5000 year old capital of Lord Krishna—-archaeologists have found walls, artifacts, and structures off the modern Dwarka. The city holds immense mythological significance and ancient texts such as Mahabharat corroborate the existence.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> The remains of this 5000 year old capital of Lord Krishna From Wikipedia, with citations[0]: “Archaeological findings suggest the original temple Dwarkadhish Temple dedicated to Krishna was built in 200 BCE at the earliest.” Any reference to Krishna further back than that is mere legend, and considering that the name Krishna is etymologically from a language family that did not even reach India until more recently than five thousand years ago, your claim is preposterous on its face. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarka
- dagmx 3y ago
  As an Indian, the rise of Hindutva has been so damaging to history. So I appreciate people like you who provide more historical context and grounding. So much gets retconned with these apocryphal takes on how everything relates to Hinduism. So much of the rich history of the subcontinent has been reduced to religious politics. There is so much cultural erasure in the name of religious vanity. I was raised Hindu but I just can’t relate to this religious fervour
- indus 3y ago
  I’m not claiming anything—-nor an expert. Just reciting the experts[0] It is laziness to cite a Wikipedia article without doing any research. [0] https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2021/05/the-mythical-underwater-city-of-dwarka-india-is-9500-years-old/ https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2021/05/the-mythical-underwa...
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago

developer93 3y ago

I notice there are no named quotes here, it's all "a holy man" "a woman". I admit I didn't read the other sources like the book but it's a bit of a red flag for me.

yalogin 3y ago
It’s not clear what your expectation is. It’s quotes from people so even if they name them there isn’t much meaning to it.
- antonvs 3y ago
  It's easier to make up stories to support a narrative when you don't have to be specific about it. Hence the suspicion mentioned by the other commenter.
- developer93 3y ago
  While most readers probably won't check further, if they print "mr y from village x said this" there's more chance that either mr y can come forward & say "no I didn't" or other villagers can say "I live in village x and I don't know any mr y" or another journalist can say "I checked the records of village x and there's no mr y listed". Unnamed sources are a great delight of tabloid writers and while not proof of lying, they make a story less credible. This is why credible news programmes/newspapers have things like requiring at least 2 sources for any claim. Journalistic standards are a thing.

yalogin 3y ago

Anything bad is attributed to immoral ways of the people by all religions. A disaster is something religions don’t waste, and they always point out god is angry. Happens in every country.