4 ms·

I'm talking about laws and enforcement of laws against anti-competitive practices like price fixing. Either enforcement is wildly different and there's a shitlo

I'm talking about laws and enforcement of laws against anti-competitive practices like price fixing. Either enforcement is wildly different and there's a shitload of money to be made by undercutting the Austrian grocery cartel or the price fixing theory is just a socialist talking point.

em-bee 3y ago
but in order to do that for groceries you have to open shops in austria which makes it much more difficult compared to products that can be sold online.
- iraqmtpizza 3y ago
  How hard is it to sell food out of a flower shop? Out of a candy store? A toy store? A gift shop? A coffee shop? A hardware store? There are retailers all over the country that could start selling food in no time flat. Starbucks is part of the Austrian grocery cartel too? And there's still no evidence that authorities are turning a blind eye to price fixing other than 'price go up.' Ask an Austrian hardware store owner why he doesn't sell food when he can supposedly undercut grocery stores and still make 5% profit on every item sold. I bet you anything he'll say that's bs.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    i am not sure i understand what your argument is, or what you think mine is. your last sentence suggests that you don't believe that anyone can just undercut the big supermarket chains in austria. which is what i also don't believe. but your first sentence is saying something different, so that has me confused.
    - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
      What will happen if a hardware store starts selling bread? Austrian grocery cartel thugs will show up and break his legs? Please explain in detail why you believe that coffee shops cannot sell bread without a multi-year planning and approval process. It's bs that anyone not in the supposed cartel can suddenly make huge profits on food by undercutting. Gross margins on food are almost certainly very low. THERE IS NO CARTEL. There is no room to undercut. There is no evidence of illegal price fixing other than price go up. The only cartel is the Austrian government which is the cause of the price increases--not via lack of enforcement of laws but from carrying out their policies as written. This is inconvenient to the socialist talking point about corporations fixing the price of bread with impunity.
      - em-bee 3y ago
        first of all, i agree with you. THERE IS NO CARTEL. there is no need to shout. the cartel is not the problem. aldi from germany successfully entered the market in austria with their hofer chain, and lidl is a german supermarket chain too. but i also do not agree with you that it would be trivial to sell food anywhere. brand protection laws here (i found a source for germany, but i believe that this should be EU wide, otherwise it would be in violation of EU laws) do not allow you to sell a branded product without the permission of the brand owner. so in order to sell something you have to negotiate with the brand. if you are a small shop you will not get the same volume prices as the big chains because you have no bargaining power. and if you already sell something else you will have to convince them that doing that combining that is a good idea. (i also think that you may need a license to sell food alongside other products, which may be denied. you can't just sell everything anywhere). the brands may also not be happy that you undercut the large chains they sell to as it may push them to demand lower prices from the brand in order to compete. i also found one article that claims that "Territorial Supply Constraints" would allow brands to segment the EU along the internal borders and demand different prices per region. it looks like that may be the real problem. and while it may be possible to buy the products from a third party within the EU, doing so may may be difficult at scale and make it more difficult to undercut prices. and also the complicated legal landscape risks costly lawsuits, even if you would win. why aren't the existing german chains in austria undercutting others? probably because they buy directly from the brand and so the brand can dictate where they sell.
        iraqmtpizza 3y ago
        >no bargaining power Your bargaining power is that there are a dozen other food suppliers and tens of thousands of other common food items you could sell instead. No store is going to cry and go bankrupt because they can't sell Ding Dongs. Also, there are chains of hardware stores, chains of coffee shops, chains of everything which have additional bargaining power. And if the selling price is so high then everyone is going to be eager to push as much through the pipe as possible while the getting is good. >the brands may also not be happy Too bad. There is no shortage of food brands. This is not North Korea we're talking about. >why aren't the existing german chains in austria undercutting others? Probably because to do so would mean giving up all profit. That may in fact be illegal predatory pricing--using their position in the market to squeeze out less solvent competitors.

em-bee 3y ago

but in order to do that for groceries you have to open shops in austria which makes it much more difficult compared to products that can be sold online.

iraqmtpizza 3y ago
How hard is it to sell food out of a flower shop? Out of a candy store? A toy store? A gift shop? A coffee shop? A hardware store? There are retailers all over the country that could start selling food in no time flat. Starbucks is part of the Austrian grocery cartel too? And there's still no evidence that authorities are turning a blind eye to price fixing other than 'price go up.' Ask an Austrian hardware store owner why he doesn't sell food when he can supposedly undercut grocery stores and still make 5% profit on every item sold. I bet you anything he'll say that's bs.
- em-bee 3y ago
  i am not sure i understand what your argument is, or what you think mine is. your last sentence suggests that you don't believe that anyone can just undercut the big supermarket chains in austria. which is what i also don't believe. but your first sentence is saying something different, so that has me confused.
  - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
    What will happen if a hardware store starts selling bread? Austrian grocery cartel thugs will show up and break his legs? Please explain in detail why you believe that coffee shops cannot sell bread without a multi-year planning and approval process. It's bs that anyone not in the supposed cartel can suddenly make huge profits on food by undercutting. Gross margins on food are almost certainly very low. THERE IS NO CARTEL. There is no room to undercut. There is no evidence of illegal price fixing other than price go up. The only cartel is the Austrian government which is the cause of the price increases--not via lack of enforcement of laws but from carrying out their policies as written. This is inconvenient to the socialist talking point about corporations fixing the price of bread with impunity.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      first of all, i agree with you. THERE IS NO CARTEL. there is no need to shout. the cartel is not the problem. aldi from germany successfully entered the market in austria with their hofer chain, and lidl is a german supermarket chain too. but i also do not agree with you that it would be trivial to sell food anywhere. brand protection laws here (i found a source for germany, but i believe that this should be EU wide, otherwise it would be in violation of EU laws) do not allow you to sell a branded product without the permission of the brand owner. so in order to sell something you have to negotiate with the brand. if you are a small shop you will not get the same volume prices as the big chains because you have no bargaining power. and if you already sell something else you will have to convince them that doing that combining that is a good idea. (i also think that you may need a license to sell food alongside other products, which may be denied. you can't just sell everything anywhere). the brands may also not be happy that you undercut the large chains they sell to as it may push them to demand lower prices from the brand in order to compete. i also found one article that claims that "Territorial Supply Constraints" would allow brands to segment the EU along the internal borders and demand different prices per region. it looks like that may be the real problem. and while it may be possible to buy the products from a third party within the EU, doing so may may be difficult at scale and make it more difficult to undercut prices. and also the complicated legal landscape risks costly lawsuits, even if you would win. why aren't the existing german chains in austria undercutting others? probably because they buy directly from the brand and so the brand can dictate where they sell.
      - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
        >no bargaining power Your bargaining power is that there are a dozen other food suppliers and tens of thousands of other common food items you could sell instead. No store is going to cry and go bankrupt because they can't sell Ding Dongs. Also, there are chains of hardware stores, chains of coffee shops, chains of everything which have additional bargaining power. And if the selling price is so high then everyone is going to be eager to push as much through the pipe as possible while the getting is good. >the brands may also not be happy Too bad. There is no shortage of food brands. This is not North Korea we're talking about. >why aren't the existing german chains in austria undercutting others? Probably because to do so would mean giving up all profit. That may in fact be illegal predatory pricing--using their position in the market to squeeze out less solvent competitors.