6 ms·

That’s technically correct, and I think the author would say he’s aware of that definition. The article as I read it is trying to make a broader point, that th

That’s technically correct, and I think the author would say he’s aware of that definition. The article as I read it is trying to make a broader point, that there are underlying mathematical principles that inspired Codd’s relational model. I’ve never had cause to explore it, but my understanding is that there’s nothing in those principles that require tables/rows of tuples. One goal of the article seems to be to inspire a curiosity in knowledgeable readers: what happens if you build a document database that also supports the same mathematical principles that inspired the relational model?

gregjor 3y ago
> there’s nothing in [Codd’s] principles that require tables/rows of tuples. Have you read Codd’s Rules #1 and #2? Pretty clear on this point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_12_rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_12_rules Technically the relational model uses the term relation to refer to an unordered set of tuples, where every tuple has a key (one or more elements) to uniquely identify it, and every tuple has the same number of items, of the same type. Tables are relations. So are the results of a query, which can include joins.
- ghusbands 3y ago
  > > there’s nothing in [Codd’s] principles that require tables/rows of tuples. You're misquoting; is that intentional? The post you're replying to says the principles that inspired/predate Codd don't require tables/tuples. Thus, the details of Codd's relational model are irrelevant.
  - bazoom42 3y ago
    What principles are you talking about then?
  - gregjor 3y ago
    If I misunderstood the principles you refer to I apologize. Codd's relational rules and designs for relational databases developed from relational algebra theory, which was introduced by... Edgar F. Codd. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_algebra https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_algebra If you meant to refer to some other principles can you name them or give a link or something?
bazoom42 3y ago
A relation is by definition a set of tuples (informally called a table where the tuples are the rows). Codds relational database model adds the further constraint that nested tables are not allowed (first normal form), instead representing relationships through foreign keys. Codds motivation for disallowing nested tables is that it makes query languages much simpler. He develops relational algebra which is the foundation behind SQL, which is why SQL does not allow nested tables. Document databases does not follow first normal form and allows nested structures, so they cannot be queried with relational algebra, since it doesnt have a way to “drill down” into nested structures. It is unclear to me what “mathematical principles” remain if you remove the notion of relations from the relational model.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago
  Out of my depth here (no experience) but "Codds relational database model adds the further constraint that nested tables are not allowed" may be wrong. He allowed nested stuff, it's just that SQL didn't support it. Can anyone elucidate? Please don't shout that I'm wrong because there was something there in his first paper.
  - bazoom42 3y ago
    No, he explicitly disallows nested relations. This is the definition of first normal form. Hierarchical databases (which predate relational) can be understood as nested relations, and Codds first example of normalization is how to extract the nested relations in such a database into seperate tables and instead express the relationships through foreign keys.
    - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
      Thanks for a polite disagreement, but I believe you are wrong (not saying you are!). IIRC Codd defined relation valued attributes and also associated operators Group and Ungroup. https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/sql-and-relational/9781449319724/ch07s10.html https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/sql-and-relational/9781... also https://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~erwin/RA_Intro.htm https://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~erwin/RA_Intro.htm " Relations are, themselves, values too, and relation attributes can therefore be declared to be of another relation type. Such attributes are called 'Relation-valued attributes' (RVA's for short). In the RA, two operators are available that allow us to manipulate relations in connection with RVA's : GROUP and UNGROUP " Like I said, I'm a bit out of my depth here so take the above as evidence rather than proof that such things existed, but I'm pretty sure I saw this, hand-drawn, in one of Codd's original papers. . Edit: you are right "Codd proposed a normal form thathe called first normal form (1NF), and he included a requirement for 1NF in his definitions for 2NF,3NF, and subsequently BCNF. Under 1NF as he defined it, relation-valued attributes were “outlawed”;that is to say, a relvar having such an attribute was not in 1NF." https://fliphtml5.com/qprz/cxon/basic/201-235 https://fliphtml5.com/qprz/cxon/basic/201-235
dragonwriter 3y ago
> The article as I read it is trying to make a broader point, that there are underlying mathematical principles that inspired Codd’s relational model. The relational model is a direct product of a set of mathematical principles Codd put together called relational algebra, which deals with sets of tuples called relations. Nothing in the article addresses any of the mathematical underpinnings of the relational model. Its blowing smoke at an audience that it expects to know next to nothing about the topic. > One goal of the article seems to be to inspire a curiosity in knowledgeable readers: what happens if you build a document database that also supports the same mathematical principles that inspired the relational model The features of RDBMSs that they seem to be suggesting FQL supports are ACID transactions. While that's an important feature of RDBMSs, it isn’t the same thing as the mathematical principles addresses by the relational model, whether relational algebra or the more general set theory that inspires it. The article isn't directed at knowledgable readers.

gregjor 3y ago

> there’s nothing in [Codd’s] principles that require tables/rows of tuples. Have you read Codd’s Rules #1 and #2? Pretty clear on this point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_12_rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_12_rules Technically the relational model uses the term relation to refer to an unordered set of tuples, where every tuple has a key (one or more elements) to uniquely identify it, and every tuple has the same number of items, of the same type. Tables are relations. So are the results of a query, which can include joins.

ghusbands 3y ago
> > there’s nothing in [Codd’s] principles that require tables/rows of tuples. You're misquoting; is that intentional? The post you're replying to says the principles that inspired/predate Codd don't require tables/tuples. Thus, the details of Codd's relational model are irrelevant.
- bazoom42 3y ago
  What principles are you talking about then?
- gregjor 3y ago
  If I misunderstood the principles you refer to I apologize. Codd's relational rules and designs for relational databases developed from relational algebra theory, which was introduced by... Edgar F. Codd. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_algebra https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_algebra If you meant to refer to some other principles can you name them or give a link or something?

bazoom42 3y ago

A relation is by definition a set of tuples (informally called a table where the tuples are the rows). Codds relational database model adds the further constraint that nested tables are not allowed (first normal form), instead representing relationships through foreign keys. Codds motivation for disallowing nested tables is that it makes query languages much simpler. He develops relational algebra which is the foundation behind SQL, which is why SQL does not allow nested tables. Document databases does not follow first normal form and allows nested structures, so they cannot be queried with relational algebra, since it doesnt have a way to “drill down” into nested structures. It is unclear to me what “mathematical principles” remain if you remove the notion of relations from the relational model.

_a_a_a_ 3y ago
Out of my depth here (no experience) but "Codds relational database model adds the further constraint that nested tables are not allowed" may be wrong. He allowed nested stuff, it's just that SQL didn't support it. Can anyone elucidate? Please don't shout that I'm wrong because there was something there in his first paper.
- bazoom42 3y ago
  No, he explicitly disallows nested relations. This is the definition of first normal form. Hierarchical databases (which predate relational) can be understood as nested relations, and Codds first example of normalization is how to extract the nested relations in such a database into seperate tables and instead express the relationships through foreign keys.
  - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
    Thanks for a polite disagreement, but I believe you are wrong (not saying you are!). IIRC Codd defined relation valued attributes and also associated operators Group and Ungroup. https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/sql-and-relational/9781449319724/ch07s10.html https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/sql-and-relational/9781... also https://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~erwin/RA_Intro.htm https://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~erwin/RA_Intro.htm " Relations are, themselves, values too, and relation attributes can therefore be declared to be of another relation type. Such attributes are called 'Relation-valued attributes' (RVA's for short). In the RA, two operators are available that allow us to manipulate relations in connection with RVA's : GROUP and UNGROUP " Like I said, I'm a bit out of my depth here so take the above as evidence rather than proof that such things existed, but I'm pretty sure I saw this, hand-drawn, in one of Codd's original papers. . Edit: you are right "Codd proposed a normal form thathe called first normal form (1NF), and he included a requirement for 1NF in his definitions for 2NF,3NF, and subsequently BCNF. Under 1NF as he defined it, relation-valued attributes were “outlawed”;that is to say, a relvar having such an attribute was not in 1NF." https://fliphtml5.com/qprz/cxon/basic/201-235 https://fliphtml5.com/qprz/cxon/basic/201-235

dragonwriter 3y ago

> The article as I read it is trying to make a broader point, that there are underlying mathematical principles that inspired Codd’s relational model. The relational model is a direct product of a set of mathematical principles Codd put together called relational algebra, which deals with sets of tuples called relations. Nothing in the article addresses any of the mathematical underpinnings of the relational model. Its blowing smoke at an audience that it expects to know next to nothing about the topic. > One goal of the article seems to be to inspire a curiosity in knowledgeable readers: what happens if you build a document database that also supports the same mathematical principles that inspired the relational model The features of RDBMSs that they seem to be suggesting FQL supports are ACID transactions. While that's an important feature of RDBMSs, it isn’t the same thing as the mathematical principles addresses by the relational model, whether relational algebra or the more general set theory that inspires it. The article isn't directed at knowledgable readers.