4 ms·

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is not like the American religious practices you mention, where faith is a matter of identity but only expressed on Sundays or whatever.

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is not like the American religious practices you mention, where faith is a matter of identity but only expressed on Sundays or whatever. Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is a total way of life, for men especially it determines your daily schedule every day of the week. The Torah study that many men engage in full-time gives them a distinct body of knowledge and perspective that makes them feel part of the same culture as fellow ultra-Orthodox, while the secular world is an alien and potentially hostile place. That isn’t to say that attrition doesn’t happen. It does. But this group has resisted it more than other faiths.

mdhen 3y ago
They also marry young, like at 18/19 and then are expected to start having kids immediately. Once they have kids, they're stuck. If you want to leave the faith you better have your spouse on board or you will also be leaving your kids.
pcthrowaway 3y ago
My understanding of the community is that the women are often the breadwinners in addition to being homemakers and caretakers. I wonder if/how this will be sustainable as things become more and more expensive. Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences
- tguvot 3y ago
  >Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences both. they supposed to enroll to army but in case they study in yeshiva they typically avoid it, till they reach the age when army "looses" interest in you. it's one of the major pain points in israeli politics/society. army supposed to be people army but big chunk of population avoids it and all the time tries to pushes through knesset laws to make this avoidance permanent and supreme court strikes it down (because it violates equality clause) one of the reasons for the very messy supreme court reform in israel that been ongoing for past half an year is to allow to make law that will give permanent exception from army to orthodox . they even wanted to make recently law that equates tora study to army service
  - beowa 3y ago
    > and supreme court strikes it down (because it violates equality clause) Interesting. Why is it that Arab Israelis are not required to serve then? Wouldn’t that same equality clause apply?
    - tguvot 3y ago
      good point. no idea. druze and beduins serve. arabs are excluded from draft. i guess nobody ever tried to challenge this in a court. anecdotally, in past decades some arabs tend to volunteer to army/alternative service
  - da-x 3y ago
    The argument _for_ the exemption is that it will allow them to join the workforce and contribute to the economy, instead of staying in the yeshiva (which is currently a condition necessary to get the _current_ exemption, and which I think also furthers cements into the orthodox lifestyle). I wonder whether this argument can be tested before the exemption is actually given.
    - fakedang 3y ago
      So secular folks risk their lives in military service to secure the lives of these Haredis, and upon returning to civilian life find out that no jobs exist for them, because the (quite hated) Haredis have taken them up? Sounds like a very sound recipe for stability indeed.
      - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
        In some countries with universal conscription that can be dodged, men who actually serve are more likely to be hired for desirable jobs. So, it could be that even if Haredim work in secular professions, those veterans would still have an advantage over them in the employment market and the Haredim wouldn't be viewed as ungrateful competition.
        3y ago
lormayna 3y ago
I have born and raised in a little similar environment, a semi catholic cult called Neocathecumenal Way, but after a massive growth in the 80s and in the 90s the movement is declining. Right now, only the teen agers (sons of the members) are joining the Way, but they usually leave as they grew up.

mdhen 3y ago

They also marry young, like at 18/19 and then are expected to start having kids immediately. Once they have kids, they're stuck. If you want to leave the faith you better have your spouse on board or you will also be leaving your kids.

pcthrowaway 3y ago

My understanding of the community is that the women are often the breadwinners in addition to being homemakers and caretakers. I wonder if/how this will be sustainable as things become more and more expensive. Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences

tguvot 3y ago
>Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences both. they supposed to enroll to army but in case they study in yeshiva they typically avoid it, till they reach the age when army "looses" interest in you. it's one of the major pain points in israeli politics/society. army supposed to be people army but big chunk of population avoids it and all the time tries to pushes through knesset laws to make this avoidance permanent and supreme court strikes it down (because it violates equality clause) one of the reasons for the very messy supreme court reform in israel that been ongoing for past half an year is to allow to make law that will give permanent exception from army to orthodox . they even wanted to make recently law that equates tora study to army service
- beowa 3y ago
  > and supreme court strikes it down (because it violates equality clause) Interesting. Why is it that Arab Israelis are not required to serve then? Wouldn’t that same equality clause apply?
  - tguvot 3y ago
    good point. no idea. druze and beduins serve. arabs are excluded from draft. i guess nobody ever tried to challenge this in a court. anecdotally, in past decades some arabs tend to volunteer to army/alternative service
- da-x 3y ago
  The argument _for_ the exemption is that it will allow them to join the workforce and contribute to the economy, instead of staying in the yeshiva (which is currently a condition necessary to get the _current_ exemption, and which I think also furthers cements into the orthodox lifestyle). I wonder whether this argument can be tested before the exemption is actually given.
  - fakedang 3y ago
    So secular folks risk their lives in military service to secure the lives of these Haredis, and upon returning to civilian life find out that no jobs exist for them, because the (quite hated) Haredis have taken them up? Sounds like a very sound recipe for stability indeed.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      In some countries with universal conscription that can be dodged, men who actually serve are more likely to be hired for desirable jobs. So, it could be that even if Haredim work in secular professions, those veterans would still have an advantage over them in the employment market and the Haredim wouldn't be viewed as ungrateful competition.
      - 3y ago

lormayna 3y ago

I have born and raised in a little similar environment, a semi catholic cult called Neocathecumenal Way, but after a massive growth in the 80s and in the 90s the movement is declining. Right now, only the teen agers (sons of the members) are joining the Way, but they usually leave as they grew up.