5 ms·

It's too bad, I hoped EVs were one thing everyone could agree on. Maybe because it's good for the environment. Or because it's good for energy independence.

bdcravens 3y ago
Perhaps Elon can be the bridge there, since he's seen as a bit of a free speech messiah by the right. If nothing else, I'd think the "red-blooded" crowd would love the speed that EVs give you.
- LastTrain 3y ago
  That is his whole play - more than anything, US conservatives want liberals to be humiliated and angry, and Elon delivers, and that is the ONLY way owning an EV can be palatable to that crowd.
  - pbj1968 3y ago
    They will convert at precisely the moment it makes economic sense.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      Some will. My brother in law is a hardcore Trump supporter and he drives a Chevy Bolt. The TCO on that car beats every ICE vehicle. Every last one. If it were just economics, EVs are a winner for the majority of average folks already. It's not that simple. Ideology is more important.
    - bdcravens 3y ago
      There are those who may not - those who see the EV subsidies as a symptom of the "woke mindvirus" and see fighting it as a matter of fighting for their overall way of life. They see the mandates some states are pushing as an assault on freedom, and a communist incursion, and the use of petroleum as a patriotic exercise.
      - the_third_wave 3y ago
        Remove the partisan blather and you're on to something. It is the mandates, the top-down control based on incomplete and often false premises and the holier-than-thou attitude that drives people away from these "moon shot projects". Once EVs make economical and practical sense people will flock to them but that will take a while a while for many people, especially those with longer commutes and those who live in the more northerly/wintry areas. If you live in places where the sun always shines and have the space for a good-sized solar array it already makes sense, elsewhere - not so much.
        deprecative 3y ago
        Simple: remove all subsidies for ICE cars and everything they use.
    - LastTrain 3y ago
      Yeah… because f350s make so much economic sense…
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    I don't really believe it, but I wouldn't be entirely shocked if we learn MAGA Elon was just a persona who adopted to win over the relatively untapped market.
  - lotsoweiners 3y ago
    I think that is just what you’re being led to believe. I meet pretty hardcore conservatives all the time who have Teslas or other EVs. Hell, I can walk to the end of my street and there is a front door covered with a large Trump flag that has 2 EVs, a Model 3 and some Ford, in the garage.
    - LastTrain 3y ago
      No one has 'led' me to believe this because I've not heard anyone else say it. If you are trying to tell me that US conservatives have not politicized renewable energy in general and EV ownership in particular you are being naïve or dishonest. Musk is a salesman and has exploited this by doing what has worked for US conservatives since Rush Limbaugh- acting stupid and obnoxious.
Baeocystin 3y ago
I work with a lot of relatively conservative folks. The F-150 Lightning is making huge waves in that crowd, in a positive way. One of them owns a landscaping company, and just swapped out their order of a half dozen regular trucks over to the electric ones. FWIW.
- sergers 3y ago
  In the long run it will be fine, but likely they got a good deal to help clear out inventory. Few Ford dealer workers I know have been Talking about the buildup of stock of f150 lightning and mache at dealerships. People are turning down the purchases from preorder due to issues with battery or otherwise that is plaguing their full electric. 6 months ago you had to be on a long waiting list, now you can find one at alot of lots.
- beached_whale 3y ago
  I wonder how much not needing a generator helps too.
  - Baeocystin 3y ago
    It's a big deal to many of them. For the landscapers in particular, being able to fast charge the pro-level electric packs for leafblowers, weed whackers, etc in the frunk is a big part of it as well. From what I understand, there are contracts here in the Bay Area that pay more if the landscaping crew is electrified.
Tanoc 3y ago
There's a subset of the anti-EV crowd that's against EVs not because they're brodozer drivers, but because they realize individual vehicle ownership is the other half of the problem. EVs still cost resources that are harmful to harvest outsized relative to their use thanks to strip mining and the chemical process used to separate cobalt from manganese at a mass scale. Those people, myself included, believe that mass transit needs to make a resurgence instead of everyone switching to EVs. I even get annoyed seeing EV "bicycles" that weigh as much as the riders and cost as much as a scooter because I think they're wastes of resources used to dodge taxes and pedestrian right of way laws regarding motorcycles.
- psunavy03 3y ago
  Individual vehicle ownership is not a "problem." The United States is not Europe, both from a cultural perspective and a geographical one. You can either propose unrealistic solutions like "push mass transit hard and increase density," or you can meet people where they are and realize America is a big, big country with a tradition of individual freedom. People don't necessarily want to live in a big city, go only where the buses and trains go, and never have the chance to go on road trips or vacations to the mountains or the beach. Better for the climate to do this via battery power and not fossil fuels, because it's going to happen.
- gonzo41 3y ago
  I'm very pro ebike. But some American classes of ebikes are just electric motorcycles with a set of crank arms for show. Pedelec bikes are ebikes. Everything else is with a throttle is a scooter Cycling has more benefits than replacing cars. It connects us with joyful movement. And the infrastructure is cheaper to build and extend compared to railways.
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    I wish instead of the subsidies we shat out for EVs, we did them for ebikes instead.
  - ferongr 3y ago
    >It connects us with joyful movement This means nothing.
water-data-dude 3y ago
I’m really torn on EVs now because of all the freaking data collection (every new car, not just EVs). I want to do what I can to reduce how much I’m contributing to climate change, but I still might get another old car when this one goes because I don’t want to be spied on.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  If you're into building things yourself you could convert an older ICE car to an electric by swapping out the engine for an electric motor plus the necessary electronics, removing the tank and replacing it with batteries and adding more batteries wherever they fit - you'll need them to get a reasonable range. Some companies make kits to do this, otherwise there are plenty of DIY forums where these types of activities are discussed.
  - xg15 3y ago
    > removing the tank and replacing it with batteries and adding more batteries wherever they fit - you'll need them to get a reasonable range Is this actually doable? I thought in modern EVs, the battery takes up half the chassis. In a "retrofitted" EV, you'll have lots of space (and therefore battery capacity) taken up by mechanical systems which are essential for a central motor, but relatively useless if you could just use multiple electric motors.
    - the_third_wave 3y ago
      Yes, it is doable [1] but these conversions for the most part do not get the range expected from factory-made EVs. From what I gather the range will vary from ~120km (small city car) to ~350 km. [1] https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/choosing/electric-car-conversion-how-to-convert-a-car-to-electric/ https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/choosing/electric-...
mlyle 3y ago
In addition to other objections, there's the people who think that EVs don't hit every use case yet, and they use a lot of rare earth metals, etc... and that you can get 90% of the benefit with a PHEV (and build/sell a lot more PHEVs with current resources). IMO, we're going to need a lot of different approaches to solve climate. EVs, PHEVs, reduction of use of single-occupant vehicles, more transit, more biking, more e-bikes, blah blah blah.

bdcravens 3y ago

Perhaps Elon can be the bridge there, since he's seen as a bit of a free speech messiah by the right. If nothing else, I'd think the "red-blooded" crowd would love the speed that EVs give you.

LastTrain 3y ago
That is his whole play - more than anything, US conservatives want liberals to be humiliated and angry, and Elon delivers, and that is the ONLY way owning an EV can be palatable to that crowd.
- pbj1968 3y ago
  They will convert at precisely the moment it makes economic sense.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    Some will. My brother in law is a hardcore Trump supporter and he drives a Chevy Bolt. The TCO on that car beats every ICE vehicle. Every last one. If it were just economics, EVs are a winner for the majority of average folks already. It's not that simple. Ideology is more important.
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    There are those who may not - those who see the EV subsidies as a symptom of the "woke mindvirus" and see fighting it as a matter of fighting for their overall way of life. They see the mandates some states are pushing as an assault on freedom, and a communist incursion, and the use of petroleum as a patriotic exercise.
    - the_third_wave 3y ago
      Remove the partisan blather and you're on to something. It is the mandates, the top-down control based on incomplete and often false premises and the holier-than-thou attitude that drives people away from these "moon shot projects". Once EVs make economical and practical sense people will flock to them but that will take a while a while for many people, especially those with longer commutes and those who live in the more northerly/wintry areas. If you live in places where the sun always shines and have the space for a good-sized solar array it already makes sense, elsewhere - not so much.
      - deprecative 3y ago
        Simple: remove all subsidies for ICE cars and everything they use.
  - LastTrain 3y ago
    Yeah… because f350s make so much economic sense…
- bdcravens 3y ago
  I don't really believe it, but I wouldn't be entirely shocked if we learn MAGA Elon was just a persona who adopted to win over the relatively untapped market.
- lotsoweiners 3y ago
  I think that is just what you’re being led to believe. I meet pretty hardcore conservatives all the time who have Teslas or other EVs. Hell, I can walk to the end of my street and there is a front door covered with a large Trump flag that has 2 EVs, a Model 3 and some Ford, in the garage.
  - LastTrain 3y ago
    No one has 'led' me to believe this because I've not heard anyone else say it. If you are trying to tell me that US conservatives have not politicized renewable energy in general and EV ownership in particular you are being naïve or dishonest. Musk is a salesman and has exploited this by doing what has worked for US conservatives since Rush Limbaugh- acting stupid and obnoxious.

Baeocystin 3y ago

I work with a lot of relatively conservative folks. The F-150 Lightning is making huge waves in that crowd, in a positive way. One of them owns a landscaping company, and just swapped out their order of a half dozen regular trucks over to the electric ones. FWIW.

sergers 3y ago
In the long run it will be fine, but likely they got a good deal to help clear out inventory. Few Ford dealer workers I know have been Talking about the buildup of stock of f150 lightning and mache at dealerships. People are turning down the purchases from preorder due to issues with battery or otherwise that is plaguing their full electric. 6 months ago you had to be on a long waiting list, now you can find one at alot of lots.
beached_whale 3y ago
I wonder how much not needing a generator helps too.
- Baeocystin 3y ago
  It's a big deal to many of them. For the landscapers in particular, being able to fast charge the pro-level electric packs for leafblowers, weed whackers, etc in the frunk is a big part of it as well. From what I understand, there are contracts here in the Bay Area that pay more if the landscaping crew is electrified.

Tanoc 3y ago

There's a subset of the anti-EV crowd that's against EVs not because they're brodozer drivers, but because they realize individual vehicle ownership is the other half of the problem. EVs still cost resources that are harmful to harvest outsized relative to their use thanks to strip mining and the chemical process used to separate cobalt from manganese at a mass scale. Those people, myself included, believe that mass transit needs to make a resurgence instead of everyone switching to EVs. I even get annoyed seeing EV "bicycles" that weigh as much as the riders and cost as much as a scooter because I think they're wastes of resources used to dodge taxes and pedestrian right of way laws regarding motorcycles.

psunavy03 3y ago
Individual vehicle ownership is not a "problem." The United States is not Europe, both from a cultural perspective and a geographical one. You can either propose unrealistic solutions like "push mass transit hard and increase density," or you can meet people where they are and realize America is a big, big country with a tradition of individual freedom. People don't necessarily want to live in a big city, go only where the buses and trains go, and never have the chance to go on road trips or vacations to the mountains or the beach. Better for the climate to do this via battery power and not fossil fuels, because it's going to happen.
gonzo41 3y ago
I'm very pro ebike. But some American classes of ebikes are just electric motorcycles with a set of crank arms for show. Pedelec bikes are ebikes. Everything else is with a throttle is a scooter Cycling has more benefits than replacing cars. It connects us with joyful movement. And the infrastructure is cheaper to build and extend compared to railways.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  I wish instead of the subsidies we shat out for EVs, we did them for ebikes instead.
- ferongr 3y ago
  >It connects us with joyful movement This means nothing.

water-data-dude 3y ago

I’m really torn on EVs now because of all the freaking data collection (every new car, not just EVs). I want to do what I can to reduce how much I’m contributing to climate change, but I still might get another old car when this one goes because I don’t want to be spied on.

the_third_wave 3y ago
If you're into building things yourself you could convert an older ICE car to an electric by swapping out the engine for an electric motor plus the necessary electronics, removing the tank and replacing it with batteries and adding more batteries wherever they fit - you'll need them to get a reasonable range. Some companies make kits to do this, otherwise there are plenty of DIY forums where these types of activities are discussed.
- xg15 3y ago
  > removing the tank and replacing it with batteries and adding more batteries wherever they fit - you'll need them to get a reasonable range Is this actually doable? I thought in modern EVs, the battery takes up half the chassis. In a "retrofitted" EV, you'll have lots of space (and therefore battery capacity) taken up by mechanical systems which are essential for a central motor, but relatively useless if you could just use multiple electric motors.
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    Yes, it is doable [1] but these conversions for the most part do not get the range expected from factory-made EVs. From what I gather the range will vary from ~120km (small city car) to ~350 km. [1] https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/choosing/electric-car-conversion-how-to-convert-a-car-to-electric/ https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/choosing/electric-...

mlyle 3y ago

In addition to other objections, there's the people who think that EVs don't hit every use case yet, and they use a lot of rare earth metals, etc... and that you can get 90% of the benefit with a PHEV (and build/sell a lot more PHEVs with current resources). IMO, we're going to need a lot of different approaches to solve climate. EVs, PHEVs, reduction of use of single-occupant vehicles, more transit, more biking, more e-bikes, blah blah blah.