6 ms·

Can anyone weigh in with information as to how insulated this is from being overbearing and giving someone some form of immune deficiency syndrome?

DoreenMichele 3y ago
I'm personally skeptical of the entire concept of autoimmune disease. I think something else is going on -- something other than the immune system losing its mind and attacking healthy tissue for no real reason. If autoimmune disease is a flawed concept, then treating it this way could potentially go very bad places.
- l33t7332273 3y ago
  That’s a pretty fringe belief from my (limited!) understanding of the human immune system. Why do you think that?
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    I have a genetic disorder. I've seen lots of weird ideas about what the body is supposedly doing that simply don't make sense.
- DubiousPusher 3y ago
  You can have people with Psoriatic Arthritis creating legions on their skin. You give them an immune suppressant and the legions go away. Please explain to me your alternative hypothesis for this mode of action.
  - dnfjficiv 3y ago
    [dead]
  - alfor 3y ago
    Our immune system is dysfunctioning because of something (not natural occurrence) What is that something? - vaccines - toxins, pesticides? - lack of vitamin D, infrared? Something else? Our modern medicine (pharma companies) are succeeding at making us chronically sick as that is what is more lucrative, it’s literally the matrix, we are serving the machine, not the other way around. Whatever is causing immune problems is at the same time creating a lot of shareholder value.
    - onethought 3y ago
      But we spot these diseases the world over, not just in the US where it is lucrative. A lot of countries this medication is purchased and bargained for at the government level and then provided to individuals for low cost/no cost (outside of tax). It’s also assessed at the total population level. So I don’t know how you could convince a country (say) to buy something that makes them ill then sell them the cure. They have the efficacy data of both things. Or are you suggesting that it is a cross industry collision, like shampoo that create diabetes, and then they sell us diabetes cures?
    - Calavar 3y ago
      > Our immune system is dysfunctioning because of something (not natural occurrence) So, an autoimmune disease? Because that falls within the parameters of what you've described. > What is that something? - vaccines - toxins, pesticides? - lack of vitamin D, infrared? Something else? The question of why autoimmune diseases are becoming more common is good one. There is research that shows correlations between the incidence of autoimmune disease and vitamin D deficiency and exposure to microplastics. But as of now, these are just correlations. Causality has not been established, and there are a lot of missing links left on that road. > Whatever is causing immune problems is at the same time creating a lot of shareholder value. You give way too much credit to big pharma. 1. We don't know enough about autoimmune disease to know how to intentionally cause it. 2. As with many conspiracy theories, this one relies on the very improbable occurrence of tens of thousands of people keeping mum over multiple decades and not a single one of them growing a conscience at any point. Or just leaking something out of incompetence at any point.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    I suspect you meant lesions rather than legions?
    - DubiousPusher 3y ago
      Yes, Swype keyboard fail.
- Etrnl_President 3y ago
  > If autoimmune disease is a flawed concept Then testing this technology might prove your hypothesis.
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    Perhaps. Except a lot of studies are poorly done, humans are prone to confirmation bias, "serious" medical experiments can be awful stuff of a sort that won't get approved -- and rightly so. Trying to get buy-in on new ideas can be shockingly hard.
- mjan22640 3y ago
  Autoimmune is studied and understood deeply enough to be believable.
- leetcodesucks 3y ago
  [dead]
- bdlowery 3y ago
  Tell me you don’t know anyone with an autoimmune disease without telling me. Go talk to people with autoimmune diseases and then report back. There’s a good chance you’ll end up deleting your comment
- Calavar 3y ago
  If you take a biopsy of an inflamed part of the intestine in a person with ulcerative colitis, you can stain the cells in that sample, look at them under a microscope, and see a lot of gunk collecting around the nucleus that you don't see in the same type of cell in a healthy person. (This gunk is called p-ANCA, if you're interested in looking it up.) If you take that gunk and analyze it with x-ray crystallography, you find that the compound in this gunk has the structure of an antibody. I'd love to hear the intersection of Occam's razor and how you explain these findings with a theory other than autoimmune disease.
dnfjficiv 3y ago
[dead]
DubiousPusher 3y ago
Well, considering that current treatments for these diseases involve a broad based suppression of the immune system which lead to substantial increases risk from routine infection, they would have to be pretty bad to do worse than the current standard of care. For example, the near state-of-the-art in immune suppression is the IL-17 inhibitor. IL-17 itself is a crucial signaller for Cytokine production. And it signals a broad array of Citokines. Citokines are essential in fighting most forms of infection. So, to have side effects as bad as a modern immune suppressant, an "inverse vaccine" would have to have a generalized effect as bad as global Citokine suppression. That would be an extraordinary leap for a drug which is meant to tell T cells to ignore one specific molecule.
refurb 3y ago
This is using the body’s own mechanism to develop tolerance to an antigen that is recognized as “self”. Nothing would stop the body from developing an immune response at a later time.

DoreenMichele 3y ago

I'm personally skeptical of the entire concept of autoimmune disease. I think something else is going on -- something other than the immune system losing its mind and attacking healthy tissue for no real reason. If autoimmune disease is a flawed concept, then treating it this way could potentially go very bad places.

l33t7332273 3y ago
That’s a pretty fringe belief from my (limited!) understanding of the human immune system. Why do you think that?
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  I have a genetic disorder. I've seen lots of weird ideas about what the body is supposedly doing that simply don't make sense.
DubiousPusher 3y ago
You can have people with Psoriatic Arthritis creating legions on their skin. You give them an immune suppressant and the legions go away. Please explain to me your alternative hypothesis for this mode of action.
- dnfjficiv 3y ago
  [dead]
- alfor 3y ago
  Our immune system is dysfunctioning because of something (not natural occurrence) What is that something? - vaccines - toxins, pesticides? - lack of vitamin D, infrared? Something else? Our modern medicine (pharma companies) are succeeding at making us chronically sick as that is what is more lucrative, it’s literally the matrix, we are serving the machine, not the other way around. Whatever is causing immune problems is at the same time creating a lot of shareholder value.
  - onethought 3y ago
    But we spot these diseases the world over, not just in the US where it is lucrative. A lot of countries this medication is purchased and bargained for at the government level and then provided to individuals for low cost/no cost (outside of tax). It’s also assessed at the total population level. So I don’t know how you could convince a country (say) to buy something that makes them ill then sell them the cure. They have the efficacy data of both things. Or are you suggesting that it is a cross industry collision, like shampoo that create diabetes, and then they sell us diabetes cures?
  - Calavar 3y ago
    > Our immune system is dysfunctioning because of something (not natural occurrence) So, an autoimmune disease? Because that falls within the parameters of what you've described. > What is that something? - vaccines - toxins, pesticides? - lack of vitamin D, infrared? Something else? The question of why autoimmune diseases are becoming more common is good one. There is research that shows correlations between the incidence of autoimmune disease and vitamin D deficiency and exposure to microplastics. But as of now, these are just correlations. Causality has not been established, and there are a lot of missing links left on that road. > Whatever is causing immune problems is at the same time creating a lot of shareholder value. You give way too much credit to big pharma. 1. We don't know enough about autoimmune disease to know how to intentionally cause it. 2. As with many conspiracy theories, this one relies on the very improbable occurrence of tens of thousands of people keeping mum over multiple decades and not a single one of them growing a conscience at any point. Or just leaking something out of incompetence at any point.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  I suspect you meant lesions rather than legions?
  - DubiousPusher 3y ago
    Yes, Swype keyboard fail.
Etrnl_President 3y ago
> If autoimmune disease is a flawed concept Then testing this technology might prove your hypothesis.
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  Perhaps. Except a lot of studies are poorly done, humans are prone to confirmation bias, "serious" medical experiments can be awful stuff of a sort that won't get approved -- and rightly so. Trying to get buy-in on new ideas can be shockingly hard.
mjan22640 3y ago
Autoimmune is studied and understood deeply enough to be believable.
leetcodesucks 3y ago
[dead]
bdlowery 3y ago
Tell me you don’t know anyone with an autoimmune disease without telling me. Go talk to people with autoimmune diseases and then report back. There’s a good chance you’ll end up deleting your comment
Calavar 3y ago
If you take a biopsy of an inflamed part of the intestine in a person with ulcerative colitis, you can stain the cells in that sample, look at them under a microscope, and see a lot of gunk collecting around the nucleus that you don't see in the same type of cell in a healthy person. (This gunk is called p-ANCA, if you're interested in looking it up.) If you take that gunk and analyze it with x-ray crystallography, you find that the compound in this gunk has the structure of an antibody. I'd love to hear the intersection of Occam's razor and how you explain these findings with a theory other than autoimmune disease.

dnfjficiv 3y ago

[dead]

DubiousPusher 3y ago

Well, considering that current treatments for these diseases involve a broad based suppression of the immune system which lead to substantial increases risk from routine infection, they would have to be pretty bad to do worse than the current standard of care. For example, the near state-of-the-art in immune suppression is the IL-17 inhibitor. IL-17 itself is a crucial signaller for Cytokine production. And it signals a broad array of Citokines. Citokines are essential in fighting most forms of infection. So, to have side effects as bad as a modern immune suppressant, an "inverse vaccine" would have to have a generalized effect as bad as global Citokine suppression. That would be an extraordinary leap for a drug which is meant to tell T cells to ignore one specific molecule.

refurb 3y ago

This is using the body’s own mechanism to develop tolerance to an antigen that is recognized as “self”. Nothing would stop the body from developing an immune response at a later time.