3 ms·

Its not like "I know a guy". Its like common knowledge for people who do this stuff that it seriously fucks you up if you do this too often. Its like 100% guara

Its not like "I know a guy". Its like common knowledge for people who do this stuff that it seriously fucks you up if you do this too often. Its like 100% guaranteed. I would not take this every day for a month even if you offer me a years salary. Every medic who thinks this is a good idea should do the self test in my opinion. The same goes for giving ritalin to kids, but that is a different story...

ethanbond 3y ago
> Its like common knowledge Why don't you just say folk wisdom? Commonly rumored? Calling something "knowledge" doesn't make it such. The entire point of science, and the reason it's so ridiculously hard, is that common knowledge is so frequently wrong. > I would not take this every day for a month even if you offer me a years salary. Then don't? No one is asking you to, nor is this trial nor the proposed line of treatment anything like this. > Every medic who thinks this is a good idea should do the self test in my opinion. I have a better proposal: how about they do a bunch of solid RCTs on it? That way we get actual information instead of noise.
- randomNumber7 3y ago
  I'm also I since guy, so I'm not against what you are saying. Your just twisting my words. You know the story of mdma? It was developed for medical use... And I sayd im skeptical of this, because I cannot imagin, that any serious study, considering the risks comes to this conclusion. Unless it literally stops people from suicid. But as far as I know it's more probable to increase this risk so idk.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    But dude, that's the whole point of these studies! It's really hard to know what a given drug does! We should absolutely factor in people's subjective experiences and recreational experiments in terms of deciding whether it's worth investigating something more thoroughly, but once real, high-quality studies are done (especially RCTs), people's recreational experiences hold very little water when they are in conflict with the study.
    - randomNumber7 3y ago
      Yes I also misunderstood the usage. They make a therapy session once a month where the patient gets high before the session. On the other hand, they dont factor in the body mass of the patient and give everyone the same dosage. That doesnt seem high quality to me. And 120-180mg isn't just a little. Thats at the upper end of what you would take when you go to a party, just for reference. Give this to someone with 60kg body mass and they can have a very bad experience.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        The dosages are discovered and defined by the Phase I trial, also in a very systematic way that is meant to break free of folk wisdom about correct dosages.
- randomNumber7 3y ago
  > I have a better proposal: how about they do a bunch of solid RCTs on it? Good but somehow a lot of medics give ritalin to kids. If you would buy some ritalin, and also some speed. Try both and realize it is pretty similiar. I know someone in his mid twenties who has a tremor in his left hand because he had to take this since the age of 10. And maybe there are cases where it makes sense. But defenitely not in that amount. Idgaf about what anyone tells me about this.
BurningFrog 3y ago
> I would not take this every day for a month... From the article: The treatment period consisted of three 8-h dosing sessions, in conjunction with therapy, spaced approximately 1 month apart.
- randomNumber7 3y ago
  Thank you and sorry for not reading carfully enough. It's still a pretty heavy dosage. Most sane ravers would take less with more time in between. But I guess if you stop after 3 sessions it is ok. They gave everyone the same dosage without considering the body mass. Then 120mg as initial dosis for someone who has no tolerance is a crazy kick (considering body mass of ~80kg).
  - InSteady 3y ago
    Taking multiple "points" (100mg doses) in a single session is extremely common among enjoyers of MDMA. People don't really build tolerance to MDMA when they use it responsibly. This is a phase 3 clinical trial, aka the last and most rigorous phase before potential FDA approval. There have already been studies previous to this one that establish safe bounds for dosage of chemically pure MDMA in a clinical setting, many of which are targeted at patients with "no tolerance" (aka drug naïve). You are clutching pearls pretty hard here. Experimental medicine is not without risks. Apparently 8 whole active study group participants (less than 10%) experienced mild tachycardia, aka fast heartbeat, in a setting full of trained medical professionals with the skills and equipment to handle such events. There was also some sweating and nervousness. Compare that to a moderate to bad episode of PTSD and it's a walk in the park by comparison. This is highly ethical research. Take a breath and carefully read the full study and some of its references, as well as some other ones prior to this phase 3 trial, if you are seriously concerned about this issue.
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      > Taking multiple "points" (100mg doses) in a single session is extremely common among enjoyers of MDMA. 300mg, especially for someone without prior MDMA experience, is an absolutely unhinged hero dose. 300mg spaced out over the course of 12 hours or so is somewhat less so, but you absolutely will get fewer effects on re-dosing, and fewer the next day as well if you dose again. That said 120mg should be pretty safe for anyone, but with lower-tolerance or lighter users, could definitely reduce their ability to engage in meaningful conversation or retain any memory of what they discussed. Which isn't to say they won't come away from the experience feeling warm fuzzies and possibly with significant improvements in their PTSD symptoms, but it does make me wonder if it's a good way to study how much of that is the talk therapy and how much is just the therapeutic effects of the drug

ethanbond 3y ago

> Its like common knowledge Why don't you just say folk wisdom? Commonly rumored? Calling something "knowledge" doesn't make it such. The entire point of science, and the reason it's so ridiculously hard, is that common knowledge is so frequently wrong. > I would not take this every day for a month even if you offer me a years salary. Then don't? No one is asking you to, nor is this trial nor the proposed line of treatment anything like this. > Every medic who thinks this is a good idea should do the self test in my opinion. I have a better proposal: how about they do a bunch of solid RCTs on it? That way we get actual information instead of noise.

randomNumber7 3y ago
I'm also I since guy, so I'm not against what you are saying. Your just twisting my words. You know the story of mdma? It was developed for medical use... And I sayd im skeptical of this, because I cannot imagin, that any serious study, considering the risks comes to this conclusion. Unless it literally stops people from suicid. But as far as I know it's more probable to increase this risk so idk.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  But dude, that's the whole point of these studies! It's really hard to know what a given drug does! We should absolutely factor in people's subjective experiences and recreational experiments in terms of deciding whether it's worth investigating something more thoroughly, but once real, high-quality studies are done (especially RCTs), people's recreational experiences hold very little water when they are in conflict with the study.
  - randomNumber7 3y ago
    Yes I also misunderstood the usage. They make a therapy session once a month where the patient gets high before the session. On the other hand, they dont factor in the body mass of the patient and give everyone the same dosage. That doesnt seem high quality to me. And 120-180mg isn't just a little. Thats at the upper end of what you would take when you go to a party, just for reference. Give this to someone with 60kg body mass and they can have a very bad experience.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      The dosages are discovered and defined by the Phase I trial, also in a very systematic way that is meant to break free of folk wisdom about correct dosages.
randomNumber7 3y ago
> I have a better proposal: how about they do a bunch of solid RCTs on it? Good but somehow a lot of medics give ritalin to kids. If you would buy some ritalin, and also some speed. Try both and realize it is pretty similiar. I know someone in his mid twenties who has a tremor in his left hand because he had to take this since the age of 10. And maybe there are cases where it makes sense. But defenitely not in that amount. Idgaf about what anyone tells me about this.

BurningFrog 3y ago

> I would not take this every day for a month... From the article: The treatment period consisted of three 8-h dosing sessions, in conjunction with therapy, spaced approximately 1 month apart.

randomNumber7 3y ago
Thank you and sorry for not reading carfully enough. It's still a pretty heavy dosage. Most sane ravers would take less with more time in between. But I guess if you stop after 3 sessions it is ok. They gave everyone the same dosage without considering the body mass. Then 120mg as initial dosis for someone who has no tolerance is a crazy kick (considering body mass of ~80kg).
- InSteady 3y ago
  Taking multiple "points" (100mg doses) in a single session is extremely common among enjoyers of MDMA. People don't really build tolerance to MDMA when they use it responsibly. This is a phase 3 clinical trial, aka the last and most rigorous phase before potential FDA approval. There have already been studies previous to this one that establish safe bounds for dosage of chemically pure MDMA in a clinical setting, many of which are targeted at patients with "no tolerance" (aka drug naïve). You are clutching pearls pretty hard here. Experimental medicine is not without risks. Apparently 8 whole active study group participants (less than 10%) experienced mild tachycardia, aka fast heartbeat, in a setting full of trained medical professionals with the skills and equipment to handle such events. There was also some sweating and nervousness. Compare that to a moderate to bad episode of PTSD and it's a walk in the park by comparison. This is highly ethical research. Take a breath and carefully read the full study and some of its references, as well as some other ones prior to this phase 3 trial, if you are seriously concerned about this issue.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    > Taking multiple "points" (100mg doses) in a single session is extremely common among enjoyers of MDMA. 300mg, especially for someone without prior MDMA experience, is an absolutely unhinged hero dose. 300mg spaced out over the course of 12 hours or so is somewhat less so, but you absolutely will get fewer effects on re-dosing, and fewer the next day as well if you dose again. That said 120mg should be pretty safe for anyone, but with lower-tolerance or lighter users, could definitely reduce their ability to engage in meaningful conversation or retain any memory of what they discussed. Which isn't to say they won't come away from the experience feeling warm fuzzies and possibly with significant improvements in their PTSD symptoms, but it does make me wonder if it's a good way to study how much of that is the talk therapy and how much is just the therapeutic effects of the drug